\n<\/p>\n
Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:00:00] <\/span>You\u2019re listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the Internet. Serious talk about the sacred book. I\u2019m Pete Enns\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:00:08] <\/span>\u2026And I\u2019m Jared Byas. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Bible for Normal People. Today we\u2019ve got a really simple question. It may not even take up the whole time. Maybe five, six minutes. It\u2019s: Is the Bible true? So we should probably be able to wrap this up really quickly. But in all seriousness, I think this is a really important question that may actually seem simple up front. But the more we dig into it, the more complicated it gets. In fact, my first intersection with this question and the Bible, in a very personal way, came about ten years ago when a colleague\u2026I was a pastor. And again it was a fairly large church. We had five to seven teaching pastors. And he was preaching on Genesis and had been sharing the idea that perhaps one could believe the Bible is true while also believing in evolution. And, for a lot of the people in the congregation, this was no big deal and, for some, it was a huge deal. And, in fact, there was a gentleman I had grown to know over the last few years at the church. This would have been about 10 years ago. And I saw him storm out the back of the church doors red in the face intent on getting out of those doors as quickly as possible. So I followed up with him the next day and invited him to lunch and he was still fuming. Still hadn\u2019t kind of come down off of that when we sat down at a McDonald\u2019s. And we just talked for a few hours, but it didn\u2019t start out that way. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:01:40] <\/span>His first question when we sat down was, \u201cWell, Jared this is why I need to know. Is Genesis true or not?\u201d And I started to ask other questions and understand. He says, \u201cNo it\u2019s a very simple question. Yes or no. Is the Bible true or not?\u201d And unfortunately, I had to say, \u201cWell, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s actually a very simple question because it depends on what we mean by truth.\u201d And of course, aha, you caught me. I was a relativist and I wasn\u2019t taking a stand. But after a few hours of listening to him and talking with him, we both began to see. And I began to help him understand that this question is worth exploring. And that it\u2019s okay to explore it. And that just because the truth isn\u2019t simple, doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s not worth pursuing. And just because it\u2019s not clear doesn\u2019t mean it doesn\u2019t exist. We just have to work for it. And it may be a lifelong pursuit. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:37] <\/span>So this is an important question to me. It\u2019s a question I\u2019ve gotten asked a lot. Is the Bible true? And I think we\u2019ll have to first ask the question: what do we mean when we say that word? And I think we mean very different things. And so that\u2019s my goal for today is to talk about the different ways we use the word truth and then talk about how the Bible is true in those different senses. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:03:02] <\/span>Or we may discover maybe not true in other senses and that\u2019s okay. Because we use it in different ways and we can\u2019t expect the Bible to be things that it\u2019s not. And so that\u2019s what we\u2019ll explore today. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:03:17] <\/span>The other story I have in terms of my entree into this is when I was in college and I actually was, I think I was in a Greek class, and was translating John and we are translating John 14 when Jesus says, \u201cI am the way, the truth, and the life.\u201d So that\u2019s something that began to stick with me and I began to ask the question: what does it mean for a person to be the truth? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:03:43] <\/span>Because in my tradition, truth was always a proposition. It was always a sentence as to whether it was true or not. Was that sentence true or not? But then here we have Jesus saying, \u201cI am the way, the truth, and the life.\u201d And that just started this journey for me of asking, well, what do we mean by truth? What does the Bible mean by truth if a person can be the truth? Perhaps, it\u2019s bigger than just belief statements or doctrines or sentences. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:04:13] <\/span>And so, that began my journey in asking this question: Is the Bible true? So we\u2019ll go through these three different ways we use the word \u201ctruth\u201d and then we\u2019ll talk about how the Bible relates to each. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:04:27] <\/span>But the first is what I would say is truth as fact. So, truth as individual facts about physical reality. The what. There\u2019s lots of examples of this. You know, scientific examples. Historical examples. So you know, I grew up in Texas and had visited several times growing up the Alamo and so there is a fact about the Alamo. It exists. It\u2019s there. I can touch it. There is a fact about what happened at the Alamo. Some facts about what happened at the Alamo. Historical facts. Scientific facts. And it\u2019s important then to recognize when it comes to the Bible, is the Bible true as it relates to individual facts about physical reality? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:05:19] <\/span>And this is where we have to get even more nuanced when we\u2019re talking about the Bible and why context matters. Because we have to ask the question in this passage: is the Bible trying to state facts about physical reality? And sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn\u2019t. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:05:37] <\/span>But there is a second level, or second definition, of truth when we\u2019re trying to ask: Is the Bible true? And that is truth as meaning. So, truth as this connected meaning about the human condition. What I would say is the why question. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:05:55] <\/span>So sometimes we talk about truth. We throw it around and what we mean is truth as an individual fact that corresponds to a physical reality. With a what. And sometimes we use truth as meaning. Or what something means for us in the human condition. Or the why question. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:06:16] <\/span>So it\u2019s sometimes what we mean when we\u2019re talking about truth is this interpretation of the facts. What does it mean? And we\u2019ll talk about the Bible and truth in that way. Sometimes we can say is the Bible true when we say, yeah, it\u2019s true. It\u2019s trying to tell us some truth about what it means to be human. And sometimes, in fact, you can tell a truth about meaning using things that are false about physical reality or historical fiction. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:06:52] <\/span>So for instance, if you read \u201cThe Lord of the Rings\u201d or you read \u201cThe Chronicles of Narnia\u201d or \u201cAesop\u2019s Fables\u201d or pretty much any fiction book, the point of that is that you\u2019re being told truth about the human condition even though it\u2019s through falsehoods. So you\u2019re being told truth even though it\u2019s through fiction. So sometimes truth is individual facts about reality. Sometimes truth is meaning, connectedness about the human condition\u2013what things mean. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:07:22] <\/span>And then the third piece that I think we\u2019ll see is that I think the Bible lands on actually more often than not is the truth as wisdom. So we have truth as fact, truth as meaning, and then truth as wisdom. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:07:37] <\/span>This embodiment of how we live our lives. And this is the one place where it\u2019s an adverb. It\u2019s truthfully are we living truthfully are we living out truth. And it\u2019s interesting because this kind of truth actually can\u2019t be found in books or be talked about in sentences but it can only be lived out. And that\u2019s why it\u2019s a hard one to grasp. But I think the Bible actually points us to this idea of truth as embodied wisdom more often than not which is can be kind of frustrating because the Bible sometimes resists US in trying to nail it down as a science book or as a book of facts. I don\u2019t think that was its intended purpose. So I wanted to first outline those three ways in which we used the word true where truth truth facts truth has meaning and then truth as wisdom or embodiment embodied wisdom. And when it kind of go back through and ask that question again is the Bible true. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:08:47] <\/span>Well when we\u2019re talking about individual facts about reality, we have to say that the Bible is sometimes true and sometimes not true. And then we have to say, well, where\u2019s the Bible trying to actually state facts and when is it not? So for instance, we would never say that the Bible\u2019s untrue when we\u2019re reading Jesus\u2019 parables because we\u2019re saying, well, Jesus isn\u2019t trying to state historical facts about physical reality. We\u2019re not going to say that Jesus is a liar because he\u2019s talking about a prodigal son that probably never existed. So again it depends on what the Bible is intending to say. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:09:33] <\/span>Now sometimes I think the Bible is wrong about the facts it speaks about physical reality. And I think that\u2019s true because it\u2019s written through the lens and understanding of an ancient people who didn\u2019t understand how the world functions or works in the same way we do. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:09:52] <\/span>And perhaps to give us a little humility here in the 21st century, I would imagine that in 150 years a lot of our understanding of how the physical world works will be outdated and they will think we were speaking a bunch of falsehoods as well. So as our knowledge of reality grows, things become less and less truthful but we\u2019re speaking our truth. We\u2019re speaking as we can understand it right now. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:10:19] <\/span>So the only way we could know if we\u2019re actually truthful about these facts is to have all the knowledge. We posit what we can given what we have. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:10:29] <\/span>So, is the Bible true when it\u2019s talking about individual facts ,\u00a0 <\/span>or facts about the physical universe or reality? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:10:37] <\/span>Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn\u2019t and sometimes it is intentionally not trying to state facts. And sometimes it is trying to state facts. Just want to keep that as complicated as possible so that you understand when we ask is the Bible true, that\u2019s not a simple question. So we have to take it by a case by case basis. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:10:58] <\/span>Is the Bible true? Well it depends. Is it trying to talk about facts? Is that what we mean by truth in this instance? And, if so, is the Bible trying to tell us facts? And then we can ask the question: are those facts\u2013do they correspond to the physical world or to the historical records or to the evidence that we have? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:11:19] <\/span>So I think that\u2019s really important and it\u2019s important for me to say that just because, again, the Bible is trying to state a fact doesn\u2019t mean that it\u2019s right. It could be wrong. Because, again, the Bible speaks to us in the language of the culture at the time. In the limitations of the understanding of the world at the time. So we would expect that it would speak about creation in a way that would have made sense to the ancient world. That the Psalms and others would talk about the world in a way that would have made sense to how the ancients understood the world. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:11:57] <\/span>Then we have the second which is: is the Bible true? If we\u2019re talking about it as meaning about the human condition. The why factor. That\u2019s often where I want tp say that the Bible is more often than not true. What truth is trying to tell? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:12:16] <\/span>So, a good example of truth as meaning when talking about the human condition\u2013understanding why something was written the way it was\u2013is\u2013we talked about this not too long ago when we had our Deuteronomy episode, where we talk about how the Chronicler, the author of The Book of Chronicles, changes the story of many of the Kings in the Samuel kings. And we would call that person who wrote that the Deuteronomist. So the Deuteronomist writes these stories about kings like King Manasseh and other kings. King David. And then the Chronicler comes and writes this other history. First Chronicles, Second Chronicles. And changes the facts. So in that sense we can say, well, is the Chronicler\u2026When the Chronicler says that King Manasseh repents from his egregious sins and Samuel King\u2019s does not have that. And King Manasseh does not repent then what are we\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n [00:13:21] <\/span>We can in one sense say that is it true? Is the Bible true? Well, clearly the facts are different. So it\u2019s not true in that sense. No. But I would ask the question: is that the most important use of the word truth? Because I would say that it is true in that it\u2019s trying to give us some meaning about the human condition. We\u2019d have to ask the question: why does the Chronicler change the facts? And it\u2019s for a very specific purpose. It is to help the Israelites who are coming back from exile, the Judahites, to understand their story in a new way. And that\u2019s extremely valuable and that\u2019s extremely true. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:14:05] <\/span>To answer the question: are we God\u2019s people? By beginning your history with generations and generations of genealogy, by helping to shape the story of King Manasseh in such a way that we feel still connected. There\u2019s continuity that there isn\u2019t anything too great that our God can\u2019t overcome, show mercy toward, and include us back into his people. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:14:32] <\/span>So that\u2019s the truth. And then it\u2019s told in a story that maybe changes facts, but it\u2019s about meaning. It\u2019s about the human condition. I mean another one a great example that\u2019s brought up often is in Proverbs Chapter 26. And I think it\u2019s verses 5 and 6. I\u2019d have to look it up. But here we have back to back contradictory proverbs. One says, \u201cDo not answer a fool according to his folly lest you be like him.\u201d And then the very next verse says, \u201cAnswer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes.\u201d Right? So, it\u2019s really this idea of truth as meaning about the human condition we see all throughout the Book of Proverbs. So, when you have these contradicting proverbs, you might ask the question: well, what are the facts? Which one is true? Well, it\u2019s about the human condition and the human condition is a lot of grey area. It is a lot of: \u201cWell, it depends.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n [00:15:37] <\/span>So Proverbs 26 is resisting the question of is the Bible true in terms of facts about reality. Now should I or should I not answer the fool according to his folly? And it is asking the deeper question about the human condition. Can those both be true? Absolutely. They can both be true. Why? Because it depends on the context as to what the wise way is and that\u2019s what it means. We answer a fool according to his folly. Sometimes we do and sometimes we don\u2019t. Sometimes we should. Sometimes we shouldn\u2019t. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:16:12] <\/span>So that would be the second category that we would understand truth. Truth as individual facts, truth as connected meaning about the human condition\u2013and we see this again over and over in our world. I mean truth as meaning about the human condition is what is built\u2026uh\u2026I would say fiction is built on the back. It\u2019s really standing on the shoulders of this understanding of truth. There are so many truths that we get from reading fiction. And how do we do that? Well, it\u2019s not because it\u2019s stating facts but because it\u2019s connecting with us that something about what it means to be human and in a true sense it rings, it resonates true to us emotionally and aesthetically and so that\u2019s just as true as individual facts. And that\u2019s an important level to what we mean when we talk about truth. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:17:11] <\/span>Well, we\u2019re sorry to interrupt the podcast, but we want to take just one minute to mention two simple ways to support the work we do with the Bible for Normal People. First, head over to iTunes, rate us, and give us a review. But please do this only if you like us. If not, you know, first rethink your life choices but, two, then just ignore this message completely. Secondly, check us out on Patreon. Just go to patreon.com\/thebiblefornormalpeople. And you\u2019ll find ways to jump into the community, join the discussion, and offer your support at various levels. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:17:42] <\/span>Last, but not least, we want to give our deepest thanks to some of the members of our producer\u2019s group. These folks give us feedback through email and calls and overall just help make the podcast what it is. Thanks to Logan Janzen, Matthew Tringali, Christopher Lake, Josh Hamilton, Kevin Marshall, Robert Cochran, Tyler Tankersley, Robert Auth, Austin Hill, and Patrick Antos. We couldn\u2019t do what we do without you, so thanks so much. Now back to the podcast. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:18:08] <\/span>Now, the last part of this\u2013I think it\u2019s the shortest shrift because it\u2019s so hard to talk about\u2013is this truth as embodied wisdom. It\u2019s hard because, again, it\u2019s the only one that\u2019s an adverb. It\u2019s the one that just asks: are we living truthfully? Are we living truthfully? Not is it true? It\u2019s not a question that\u2019s out there, but it\u2019s this third sense of truth we can only live out. We can\u2019t really even talk about it. We can\u2019t\u2026it\u2019s not a proposition. It\u2019s an embodiment. It\u2019s living out those truths that we have gained and garnered from understanding the facts about physical reality and the truths that we have amassed as we\u2019ve tried to connect different meanings about the human condition. So it\u2019s taking those first two senses of truth and it\u2019s embodying them in the world. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:19:02] <\/span>And this is, for me, where I would land on what Jesus is talking about when the truth is a person. And I love that it just resists making a dogma or a belief statement out of the truth, but it just asks for you to live it. So, you know, again this one can\u2019t be found in textbooks but you know some people can live lives of truth, or live truthfully, without knowing the facts or having the brain power to understand what it all means. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:19:39] <\/span>I just think of so many beautiful people in my life who lived truth. Who didn\u2019t always understand it. Who didn\u2019t have the philosophical categories to understand it. Who didn\u2019t have degrees in theology and could talk about all the times truth is used in the New Testament and parse out the different variants, but just lived in the truth. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:20:03] <\/span>And then some people can know a lot of true facts. They can connect the dots. They can understand complex systems and what it all means, but still not live truthfully. So I had an experience of this back in 2013, I think it was. I presented at a festival called Wild Goose and while I was there\u2013I had a friend who was at Duke Divinity at the time\u2013so I stayed with him one night and he took me for a walk around campus. And he was telling me about one of the Ph.D. students there and he had gotten to know him over the last few years and his life just began to fall apart. Making a lot of unwise decisions. Just really deciding not to really try to care about other people anymore but just kind of living pretty selfishly and he didn\u2019t seem to care. But, interestingly enough, he also didn\u2019t see how it was connected to the work he was doing at the seminary\u2013at the divinity school. Didn\u2019t seem at all to connect the dots that it mattered that he was going into a field of study intellectually and the content of what he was studying was imploring him to live his life the opposite of how he was living it. And so he was resisting this embodied wisdom even though he knew it. He had the brainpower. He knew all the facts. He could connect the dots. He could understand very complex theological systems, but still didn\u2019t live truthfully. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:21:43] <\/span>And I think it\u2019s really important to recognize that in our culture in the 21st century, we privilege so much in our heads and thinking right thoughts. And I know for me in my tradition, asking the question, is the Bible true, was the litmus test for your authentic Christian faith. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:22:08] <\/span>But I would actually ask the question: Are you living truthfully? I would say that\u2019s more primary in my understanding of faith now. It\u2019s way more important that I ask the question: how are you living? Are you living a life of truth? Than asking: Is the Bible true? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:22:27] <\/span>And one key person I would just really recommend if you haven\u2019t already to check out is an author, 200 years ago\u2013I know most of you won\u2019t, but if you are just sitting around and have nothing else to read\u2013pick up Soren Kirkegaard. He\u2019s a 19th century Danish philosopher, grew up in Copenhagen, and he\u2019s often called \u201cThe father of Existentialism.\u201d And really all that means is he was adamant about Christians embodying the teachings of Jesus. And he will be very adamant at how difficult this is. And, in fact, he has this great passage where he talks about being alone with God\u2019s Word. And he says, \u201cIt\u2019s a dangerous matter, of course.\u201d He says, \u201cYou can always find ways to defend yourself against God\u2019s word. Take the Bible, lock your door ,but then get out ten dictionaries and twenty five commentaries. Then you can read it just as calmly and coolly as you read the newspaper advertising. With this arsenal you can really begin to wonder: are there not several interpretations? What about new interpretations? Perhaps there are five interpreters with one opinion and seven with another and two with a strange opinion and three who are wavering who have no opinions at all. So you can calmly conclude: I\u2019m not absolutely sure about the meaning of this passage. I need more time to form an opinion. Good Lord,\u201d he says. \u201cWhat a tragic misuse of scholarship that it makes it so easy for people to deceive themselves. Can\u2019t we be honest for once? We have become such experts at cunningly shoving one layer after another. One interpretation after another between the word and our lives.\u201d And so anyway that\u2019s just a passage from Kierkegaard that I really love that kind of gets that a lot of his writings being about how we stop at truth as individual facts. Or We stop at truths as making meaning of things and it feels really good when we get that nugget of truth and soothes our soul and that\u2019s important. But it\u2019s just as important or perhaps more important that we live that truth out in embodied wisdom of how we navigate the world and how we\u2019re bringing good into the world and how we\u2019re bringing beauty into the world in a very tangible practical sense. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:24:57] <\/span>And you know it\u2019s important as we are in this day of a lot of, I would call it social media activism, where we can sometimes deceive ourselves into thinking that having opinions or knowing the facts is a substitute for embodying this life of truth. So when we talk about is the Bible true I think a better question is: is my life true? <\/span><\/p>\n [00:25:23] <\/span>And so, I just have a few takeaways here from this understanding of truth. So one is, when I\u2019m asked the question is the Bible true, I would say I see the bible as often but not always true in the first sense. So it\u2019s often true when it\u2019s talking about facts it\u2019s not always true. It exaggerates numbers in the conquests accounts, largely because that\u2019s how you talked about conquest accounts in the ancient world you exaggerated them to make them sound really important and big and devastating to your enemies. So, but the Bible is sometimes wrong in that idea of individual facts about physical reality. So I see the Bible as often not always true in that first sense. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:26:13] <\/span>But I\u2019m always looking to find meaning in it in the second sense. So I\u2019m always looking to find the truth about the human condition in the Bible and find it often but I think it\u2019s also important to recognise that, for me at least, the Bible is only ever a tool for that third sense. That the end result is that I live a life of truth and the Bible can be a tool for that. But the Bible can also be a weapon against it. And the Bible can also be a drug that keeps me from being clear about how to do it. It can be a thing that I used to escape having to live that. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:26:56] <\/span>So, I sat down with someone in a youth group several years ago who felt awful that she wasn\u2019t reading her Bible and it occurred to me that in a lot of traditions, we\u2019ve made reading the Bible the end goal. And then again I see so many people who read the Bible while not embodying the wisdom that it\u2019s pushing us to pursue. And so, for me, I started thinking of the Bible as a tool. It\u2019s a means to a larger end. And for me that end is living a life of embodied wisdom. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:27:31] <\/span>So, that\u2019s kind of the first thing\u2013seeing the Bible as a tool. And I think that\u2019s important that we don\u2019t idolize it. That it doesn\u2019t become an end in itself. So in asking \u201cIs the Bible true,\u201d is often, behind that question, a sense of idolatry or making that the most important thing rather than seeing it as a tool. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:27:51] <\/span>So, is it true? Yes, it\u2019s true and useful as a tool in those senses. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:27:57] <\/span>Two. My second takeaway here is I think it\u2019s important just to be clear when you\u2019re talking to people about whether or not the Bible is true. Let\u2019s not oversimplify it and let\u2019s not demonize each other where we might just be ships passing in the night. One person might mean is it true in the sense of individual facts. Another person might mean maybe, well, I connect with the truth that it tells about what it means to be human. And then we should both be wondering and grappling with how does this point us to how we live our lives. So just try to be clear with people. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:28:33] <\/span>So the first, see the bible as a tool. The second, try to be clear with people when you\u2019re talking about whether the Bible is true. And, three, just be cognizant. Be aware of how privileged that first sense\u2013truth as fact. And try to see the Bible as a tool for that third sense. And it\u2019s amazing once we get into that habit of seeing how often we privilege belief over practice that we see really how far down that rabbit hole we\u2019ve gone. <\/span><\/p>\n [00:29:07] <\/span>So, hopefully this has been a helpful introduction to understanding is the Bible true. And hope what you got out of it is it\u2019s complicated but maybe some tools to help navigate that conversation in the future. Thanks so much listening to the podcast. We\u2019ll be back with our regularly scheduled programming next week with a wonderful guest. Someone we can ask great questions about. Great questions to and have great conversations with about the Bible ,\u00a0 <\/span>what it is, and what we do with it. See you next time.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n