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Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:00:00] <\/span>You\u2019re listening to the Bible for Normal People. The only God-ordained podcast on the Internet. Serious talk about the Sacred Book. I\u2019m Pete Enns\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:00:08] <\/span>\u2026and I\u2019m Jared Byas. Welcome everyone to this episode of the Bible for Normal People. Today we\u2019re going to be talking about deconverting from certainty. We\u2019re talking with Audrey Assad. Her new album, Evergreen, just came out this past February and has some pretty significant themes to it. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:00:26] <\/span>Yeah, I mean, this is her processing of her own struggles with her faith in music. And I\u2019m not going to go into detail. We\u2019re going to let Audrey tell this story because she tells it so well about this process of moving from certainty to just a space of mystery and how she got there and how it actually probably saved her faith. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s an understatement. So yeah, I mean, Audrey is just a wonderful recording artist and just deep and raw. And I was introduced to her\u2013I mentioned this at the end of the podcast\u2013my daughter a few years ago sent me a link to one of her songs, \u201cI shall not want,\u201d which any Audrey Assad fan knows immediately the importance of that song. And it was just so beautiful and so, like I said, raw and authentic. And it was something I needed to hear and the power of music and the power of thoughtful lyrics and from somebody whose obviously felt things as well. And I just felt an immediate connection with Audrey and her music and so I started downloading everything and listened to stuff a lot from her. And it\u2019s just really\u2013it\u2019s fun to have an artist, Jared, on the podcast because, you know, they\u2019re more normal than I am and you are. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:01:39] <\/span>That may be the first time, I think, that you\u2019ve put artist and normal in the same\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:01:43] <\/span>Well, yea because, you know, people they feel things and they sort of express them and like me\u2013I\u2019m just German, I don\u2019t have feelings. I have arguments. Dagnabit. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:01:53] <\/span>Excellent. Alright. Well, let\u2019s get into our conversation with Audrey. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:01:57] <\/span>I see myself as someone who is building rooms for people to sit in different spots on their journey and every time I go through something, I build a room around it and then I walk forward and I build another one and people who come after me can use those space. People are going through this stuff, not just me. I think me being willing to speak up about my own journey here has been a real comfort and help to them to not feel alone in their communities. And I keep speaking because I believe it to be valuable. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:26] <\/span>Audrey Assad welcome to the Bible for Normal People podcast. Great to have you. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:31] <\/span>Thank you for having me. It\u2019s good to be here. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:33] <\/span>Awesome. So where are you talking to us from? <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:35] <\/span>I\u2019m at my home in Nashville, Tennessee in the office. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:40] <\/span>Really? I was just in Nashville. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:42] <\/span>Oh yea? <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:42] <\/span>I would have dropped in unexpectedly had I known that you lived in Nashville. But yeah, that\u2019s\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:46] <\/span>You don\u2019t have my address, Peter. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:49] <\/span>Oh, I can find it probably. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:50] <\/span>That\u2019s actually very true. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:52] <\/span>Oh I know people. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:54] <\/span>And that\u2019s just a little creepy. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:02:55] <\/span>I know. No, I am really paranoid about people being able to find my address on the Internet. But it\u2019s everywhere. There\u2019s like no way to erase it, so it\u2019s just\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:03:01] <\/span>I\u2019m hoping people show up, but nobody does. I\u2019m just lonely. Nobody cares about me at all. So, anyway\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:03:08] <\/span>Alright, get on with the hard questions. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:03:10] <\/span>I know. Hey, I have been listening to music now for a couple of years and I really love it. And my daughter turned me on to some of your stuff a couple of years ago that was just so wonderful. And the more I sort of looked into your own history, I just found it to be very interesting. Your own journey of faith. That sounds trite, but it\u2019s really true. And maybe just for the benefit of our listeners, tell us your story of your faith journeys and maybe some of your struggles and we\u2019ll just take it from there. Because I think it\u2019s a great story. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:03:40] <\/span>Well. So, I\u2019m from New Jersey. Not too far from where you teach. I actually have visited\u2013or have taught\u2013I don\u2019t know if you still teach there\u2013at Eastern. But I have visited that campus and thought about going there and then end up there. So, we missed each other in that way. But I grew up in the Northeast and my mom is from the south. My dad is from Syria. He is a refugee from Syria that came here in the 70s. So I grew up in a multicultural home in a very diverse area, which I love. And just\u2013I\u2019m so thankful that everyone hates Jersey because it means that there\u2019s more of it for me. But, I love it. So that\u2019s where I grew up. And I was raised in a Christian home. We were members of a Plymouth Brethren Church, which is something that a lot of people may not be familiar with. But I like to say I\u2019m more famous because our founder John Nelson Darby was sort of the first person to sort of proliferate the idea of a preacher relational rapture and it was very much at the center, in some ways, of how we worshipped and studied the Bible. You know, we did lots of Bible study of revelation. It was a very Bible study culture. So I grew up really digging into the Bible although we had a sort of very specific and limited hermeneutic, I guess I would say. So it was kind of myopic but at the same time, I kind of have grown thankful over the years that I was sort of taught to value it so much. So that was kind of my context. We had a really kind of interesting culture. It\u2019s a very sort of\u2013it\u2019s a spectrum of culture. So there\u2019s like more a progressive and maybe more like your typical traditional Bible Church. But where I grew up was on the sort of far right of that spectrum, where women couldn\u2019t pray out loud in front of males who are over the age of reason. You couldn\u2019t speak or read a scripture or ask a question at church. You had to go home and ask your dad, you know, if you had a question. And so there was a really strong sort of gender role\u2013there was strongly enforced gender roles and that manifested various ways in my own life obviously and as a singer and songwriter I didn\u2019t really start doing that until I was 19 years old because I didn\u2019t have any examples of women who did that sort of thing. I compare it to a Quaker background for people who want to kind of get an idea of what it felt and sounded like. You know, our church was wood walls and floors, wooden chairs, no curtains, no carpets, no images. Extremely ascetic and bare. And we were sort of very much people of the Word. Like it was all head thing. There was no physical sacramentally like maybe the liturgical churches have. And no spiritual gifts like the Pentecostal and the charismatic churches have because we were\u2013we didn\u2019t believe in that. So, it\u2019s just very somber and quiet. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:06:29] <\/span>Sort of harsh even. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:06:31] <\/span>Yeah, yeah. I would say so. But at the same time, there\u2019s something really special about being in a room with a bunch of people singing without any instruments\u00a0 <\/span>at full voice because we were all sort of taught how to do that. We were just around it our whole lives. So, we read \u2013 -we all read music and could follow along and sing all the parts and there\u2019s something really kind of cool about it, but also I would say very countercultural and different. So that was kind of my context as a kid. When I turned 18, we moved to Florida. My dad just kind of decided he wanted to relocate and I was like\u2013free rent. I\u2019m going with him. So\u2026 I moved to Florida with him and lived there for six years and while I was there, I kind of started to do that thing you do at that age where you finally start asking questions about things. So I went to a Plymouth Brethren church for about a year and a half while I was there, but it was an hour away. And I was there four times a week. And I put a lot of miles on my car and I finally decided, you know what, I don\u2019t know if I can do this anymore. I\u2019m going to try out some other places which was, you know, just crazy notion. But\u2013because we were very much, you know, you married Plymouth Brethren. You didn\u2019t work with people outside Plymouth Brethren. That was kind of how I grew up. But I started going to a little Baptist church when I was 19. And that was where I learned to lead worship. That\u2019s where I first kind of started listening to worship music, because I didn\u2019t listen to that growing up. And then from there it\u2019s like a lot of\u2013I feel I\u2019ve got to say yada yada yada a lot because there\u2019s a lot of moving around, but I\u2013I went to a Presbyterian church from there for about a year and a half. And while I was at a Presbyterian church, I met a Catholic who was, like, very different than the New Jersey Catholics I had happened to know. He was very devout and intelligent. And I don\u2019t\u2013not that they weren\u2019t intelligent, but he was articulate about what he believed and why. And we had lots of crazy conversations about it. And I started to get really interested because I think I was finally getting to a place when I was about 20\/21-years-old where I was asking myself: why am I at church? What am I here for? And I know it sounds like a silly question, but it actually didn\u2019t feel silly to me at all. I sort of started to think: I could like download a sermon on podcasts and I could go hang out with people and have \u201cfellowship\u201d on a Friday night of Bible study. And, like, all of this stuff. What am I here for? I don\u2019t understand what this is. And I started to be really intrigued by the idea of sacraments. And that was kind of the beginning of my journey into Catholicism, in terms of any like direct way. And so I ended up studying a kind of being catechized by some people I had my life\u2013by this guy that I met and his family and I became a Catholic when I was 24, which was, you know, for a Plymouth Brethren kid, it\u2019s truly anathema. And I got a lot of pushback from people, of course. But I felt really sure that it was imperfect, but the oldest church\u2013or arguably one of the oldest\u2013Orthodox Catholic, kind of that stream of Christianity. I felt like I wanted to be connected to that. And so I took the plunge and I\u2019ve been Catholic for ten years now. And now in the midst of being a Catholic, I\u2019ve gone through a pretty serious deconstruction. And I would say reconstruction at the same time. It was kind of both. It has been both at the same time. And I\u2019m still kind of in that. Meanwhile, sort of still planted in Catholicism. But have really sort of had my old fundamentalist residue like really shaken off and challenged. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:09:55] <\/span>Audrey, do you feel\u2013can I just ask you a question about that? Do you feel that your Roman Catholic context gives you freedom to sort of live in that space where you\u2019re still sort of working things out? Or do you\u2013I mean, I imagine with the Plymouth Brethren, it would have been\u2013there\u2019s not even a language for that. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:10:10] <\/span>No, there would have been no manual for it. You know, I had questions when I was young and I would ask them in Sunday school and really truly received the answer: just don\u2019t ask those questions. It\u2019s that idea. Bad question. The things that, you know, we all ask, like why did God order genocide in the Old Testament? You know, they\u2019re like\u2013just don\u2019t ask that. That was the reaction. So that\u2013there would have been no help given or guidance or understanding once, you know\u2013Catholicism\u2013okay, I\u2019ll say this\u2013on paper, yes. Because Catholicism is an incredibly broad and wide berth of different opinions and different approaches to doctrine and devotion and discipline and all those things. But in America, a lot of Catholics are just like a lot of Protestants, which is to say that they are sort of like American-Christians. And America comes first. And I find that it\u2019s discouragingly prevalent in Catholicism to be that way in this country and I think it\u2019s just part of our country\u2019s unique sickness. I\u2019m already going there. Sorry guys. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:11:08] <\/span>No, that\u2019s okay. Go wherever you want, Audrey. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:11:09] <\/span>But I have also known and clung to the fact that there are people within the Catholic Church\u2019s history, especially even in this country like Thomas Merton who\u2013or Dorothy Day\u2013who really would be called a flaming liberal by everybody in some of the parishes I\u2019ve been to in the south. And you know, I\u2019ve said to myself: well, you can say I don\u2019t belong here but I get to say you\u2019re wrong. I do. I have a place here just like some of these other people have a place. So, on paper, in theory, and in my own head, yeah, I do have more freedom. But I do meet with a lot of resistance to what I\u2019ve been doing and how I\u2019ve been doing it in terms of deconstructing and reconstructing. And I\u2019m just trying to let my\u2013let it roll off my back as much as I can because I truly do believe that this is the mystical way that many of my heroes have traveled before. And I might not be good at it, but I have to do it. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:12:03] <\/span>Yeah, Audrey, maybe give us a brief biblical history so you can track the spiritual, even denominational, path that you\u2019ve walked. How has your views of the Bible kind of tracked with that from the Plymouth Brethren to the Catholic Church? <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:12:16] <\/span>Yea, as a Plymouth Brethren kid, we were taught that the Bible is self-interpreting. And so all you need to do to interpret the Bible is understand the Bible\u2019s code. That, you know, these certain people that we happen to be sort of denominationally descended from\u2013these people happened to have the keys to that, so we were in luck. You know? And so we were scholars from a young age of how to study the Bible and it was all very specific to John Nelson Darby, Schofield, these kind of thinkers that really contributed to the evangelical ideas of pretribulational rapture and premillennialism and stuff like that. So that was our lens. And we read the entire scripture through that lens. And so we weren\u2019t taught to consider historical-critical approaches or sort of various ways that there are of studying the Bible. We weren\u2019t taught to consider those because they were not valid. And so my understanding of the Bible really came down to the reality that everything was to be read through this dispensation. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:14] <\/span>Audrey can ask a quick question for clarification? I\u2019m wondering if there might be some listeners who aren\u2019t familiar with the pretribulational\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:24] <\/span>Yes. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:24] <\/span>It\u2019s been a long time since I\u2019ve said that. You see, it isn\u2019t foremost on my mind. <\/span><\/p>\n Jared Byas: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:28] <\/span>Doesn\u2019t roll off the tongue anymore. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:29] <\/span>That\u2019s when we just say\u2013Pretrib Rapture. What in heaven\u2019s name are you talking about? <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:13:34] <\/span>Yea. So, there\u2019s lots of schools of thought on what\u2019s going to happen at the end of time. And a lot of Christians, a lot of believers, and Jewish people before them, have been wondering and writing about and studying what might happen at the end of time. The Pretribulational Rapture Theory is this idea that comes from a very literal reading of the Book of Revelation. That Jesus will come back. That all the Christians will be raised from the dead. And all the Christians who are alive on the earth will be caught up in the air. That\u2019s the rapture. And that they will meet him in the air and be in heaven. And then there will be a literal seven-year tribulation on the earth in which the Antichrist will sort of take over and the deceive people. And then Jesus will come back at the final end to vanquish the Antichrist in a giant battle at Armageddon. And then time will be over. And in our school of thought, no one got a chance on earth. So even like after the rapture happened, you didn\u2019t get a chance. So even the Left Behind books were too liberal for us because there are people getting second chances down here. Like what do they think this is? The lottery? This is not how this works. We were just very hard-lined about that being exactly how things were going to go. And that\u2019s really the pretribulational rapture. It\u2019s as simple as like, I hate to say it, is a very literal reading of a few verses in a book of the Bible\u2013the last book of the Bible. And, so, yeah. So that\u2019s kind of what we read the Bible for. And everything served or was served by that. So being Catholic was very challenging to my old ideas even though I had kind of left them behind that it\u2019s just like\u2013it\u2019s so deeply ingrained in you. And then I started to be like\u2013why\u2013the Catholic Church, man, they only preach for like 10 minutes. Like what? What is his deal? You know? The podium or the ambo, as it\u2019s called in the Catholic Church, where you read the Bible from and where you preach from, is over to the side and not in the center. And that\u2019s very intentional. Because the center for Catholics is supposed to be the sacrament of the Eucharist, which was a heretical idea to me\u2013would have been to me growing up. We thought it was idolatrous and I was taught that Catholics were part of the Revelation story. Like you read about the whore of Babylon. And that was the Catholic Church. And the Antichrist could probably be a pope. And so it\u2019s just very very . .. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:15:53] <\/span>Audrey, please tell us that you had Chick Tracts. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:15:56] <\/span>Oh, yes I did. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:15:57] <\/span>Did they give you nightmares too? <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:15:59] <\/span>They did. I hated those things, but I thought\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:00] <\/span>You\u2019re from New Jersey, you had Chick Tracts. Why are we not best friends? <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:05] <\/span>I don\u2019t know. Are you from Jersey, too? <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:06] <\/span>I don\u2019t even know what\u2019s going on. Anyway. I didn\u2019t mean to interrupt. But I just had to ask. I just had this vision of Chick Tracts, which are another thing I haven\u2019t thought about in about 30 years, so\u2026 <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:15] <\/span>I think about them way too much. I still go and visit his website sometimes. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:21] <\/span>Your next album needs to be Chick Tract stuff. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:16:24] <\/span>Yea, definitely. Uh\u2026 Audrey Assad. One cool chick. Yea, so that\u2019s the pretribulational rapture. So my journey away from that has been just really coming to realize that the Bible is not as simplistic as I have been taught that it was and it was not as easy to interpret as I\u2019ve been taught that it is. But, at the same time, the Bible also, you know\u2013it\u2019s like there\u2019s much more room given to people from different backgrounds and cultures to come to it, not only to know what was meant for this culture of the time but to look at the Bible through their own lens of their culture and their time and sort of create this living cloud of biblical wisdom. And so I just kind of view the Bible as something that came out of the church. That is interpreted by the church over time. And I don\u2019t really think I\u2019m less reverent of the Bible now. I feel like I\u2019m much more reverent of it by not reducing it to a code or a system. <\/span><\/p>\n Pete Enns: <\/b><\/span>[00:17:30] <\/span>And that\u2019s your word\u2013mystery-before. I think, you know, I don\u2019t know. In my mind, those things tie together a little bit. It\u2019s the flexibility and the freedom of not having to be certain and so you get to explore these things a little bit. I want to be clear what you just said. You said something that sounded really interesting about how the Bible sort of comes out of the church, but people have just been interpreting it differently over time. <\/span><\/p>\n Audrey Assad: <\/b><\/span>[00:17:59] <\/span>Yeah, well, you know. I guess I would put it this way. So, the Bible came out of the church, meaning the church assembled a series of books in the\u2013I guess\u2013the 400s. And these letters had been circulating for quite a long time. But there was sort of a council held to sort of set in stone with the canon was. And so the church really took it upon itself to say, like, the Holy Spirit is guiding us. We believe this to be the canon of the scriptures and this it and we\u2019re putting our stamp on it. And I didn\u2019t know that\u2019s how the Bible happened. I don\u2019t know what I thought as a kid. I thought that the Bible fell out of the sky like it is. You know? And I don\u2019t know what I thought, but that\u2019s what I\u2013something like that. And so when I found out that that\u2019s how the Bible was assembled, I thought: oh, like well then who\u2019s responsible for how we think about it? And now like a really staunch Catholic would say only the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is correct. And I never quite got there. I think I see a lot of value in the different approaches that I\u2019ve come across. You know, everything from the Catholic mystical reading of scripture to obviously the more historical readings. And I\u2019ve really appreciated the USCCB, which is the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, has on their website a Bible online with footnotes and with introductions to each book explaining kind of what type of literature each book is and who may have written it, the different ways you could read it. And so when I opened up the Book of Jonah as a new Catholic on this website and it said this may not have really happened. I was like\u2013excuse me? That was so surprising. <\/span><\/p>\n