th<\/sup> at 8:30PM
\nEastern Time. <\/p>\nPete: Eastern Time, don\u2019t forget, Eastern Time. <\/p>\n
Jared: Alright, we\u2019ll lets have this conversation
\nwith Meghan Henning on hell. <\/p>\n
[Music begins]<\/p>\n
Meghan: If we think about the ethical commands
\nthat are tied to this, the conclusion that we draw is that if there is a hell,
\nwe\u2019re all going. But, if we think about this as rhetoric, that Jesus is really
\nquite serious about and trying to drive home, what we find is that the emphasis
\nin these texts is really on care for the other, concern for the marginalized,
\nand that theme is still carried forward. Even the earliest readers of these
\ntexts understood on some level that the real point here is how you treat
\nothers.<\/p>\n
[Music ends]<\/p>\n
Pete: Well Meghan, how are you? Thanks for being
\non the podcast. <\/p>\n
Meghan: Thank you! Thank you so much for having
\nme. <\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of interesting
\nstuff to talk about today. Before we get to that, let\u2019s just hear a bit about
\nyour background. How you got into this, your spiritual background, and maybe why
\nyou even went and got a Ph.D., which probably sounded like a good idea at the
\ntime. <\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
It\u2019s everyone\u2019s doing it. <\/p>\n
Pete: Yes. <\/p>\n
Meghan: I grew up in a Lutheran family and in the
\nMidwest and when I was in high school, my family went through a lot of trauma
\nand through that time, I noticed quite quickly that the people around me were
\ndoing their best to try to support my family with the use of Scripture. But, in
\nsome cases they were actually really helpful, and in other cases, not so
\nhelpful, and the thing that was really interesting to me at that point was how
\npeople could be reading the exact same text, but in one case interpret it in a
\nway that maybe made my family feel bad about our situation, and in other cases
\nreally come alongside my family and support us. So that really got me
\ninterested from a young age in what it meant to interpret a biblical text, and
\nwhat role the interpreter had and how Scripture could be either a positive
\nforce in someone\u2019s life or something that was even scary. So, that led me on a
\nsomewhat winding path to get a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies in New Testament and
\nthen I developed an interest in the history of early Christianity as well. <\/p>\n
Jared: Well, that\u2019s really wonderful and I
\nappreciate that background, but \u2013 <\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
Jared: Today, we really want to ask really just
\none question. Does hell exist? <\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
4:59<\/p>\n
Jared: I mean, we really brought you on because
\nPete and I have been wrestling this for years, we really want to know, so can
\nyou just give us the answer? This may be a really short podcast. <\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, yeah. <\/p>\n
Meghan: Right, yeah. The answer is seven. <\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
Jared: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
Meghan: No, um. <\/p>\n
[Laughter]<\/p>\n
The question \u201cdoes hell exist?\u201d is really a
\nmodern question that we have for ancient texts that aren\u2019t asking that same
\nquestion, right? Our scientific curiosity wants us to try to decide whether or
\nnot hell is really there or not, but the problem is that the text that we\u2019re
\nasking that question of, namely, the Bible \u2013 the readers of those texts would
\nnot have had, or the earliest readers of those texts would not have had that
\nquestion. When they came across the descriptions of the weeping and gnashing of
\nteeth in the gospel of Matthew, or the story in Luke 16 with the rich man and
\nLazarus, the question for them would not have been \u2013 \u201coh\u2026is that really a
\nplace?\u201d The question for them would have been who\u2019s there and why are they
\nthere, because that\u2019s the way that the culture that they were a part of
\nunderstood reality. <\/p>\n
Jared: So, we\u2019ll get back to this, because what we
\nreally are hoping you can do for us is kind of trace this idea of hell. But
\nbefore we do that, is what you\u2019re saying then the milieu or the environment of
\nthe New Testament wouldn\u2019t, would they have already assumed the existence of
\nsomething like a hell and so the question really isn\u2019t does it exist? The idea
\nof existence and is it really there, those are really modern questions and in a
\nlot of ways there would have been a lot of assumptions in the ancient world
\nabout some of that, so they would have just asked the other questions like
\nwho\u2019s there, why are they there, not so much does it exist. Are you saying that
\nin the New Testament there wouldn\u2019t have been an assumption this place called
\nhell does exist? <\/p>\n
Meghan: Whether or not they had an assumption
\nthat a place called hell existed, they would have already been familiar with
\nideas that sounded like the language that Jesus is using in the Gospels that
\nwas already used in their broader culture to instruct people. So, the idea
\nreally begins in the cultures that are surrounding the New Testament writers.
\nSo, we have in the Greco-Roman world we have the concepts of Hades and tours to
\nthe underworld, and we have in the Odyssey<\/em> and Virgil\u2019s Aeneid<\/em> we
\nhave this idea of a going to Hades and on this journey to Hades, learning
\nsomething that you bring back through this story about your journey to Hades to
\neducate your audience. And even though the hearers of the New Testament might
\nnot have been literate or reading those stores, those stories were so widely
\nshared and told. They were part of the Greek and Roman program of education
\ncalled paideia<\/em> that was consistent and used with remarkable consistency
\nacross the empire. If we look at, for example, some of the school hands, or
\neducational texts that we have from antiquity, one of the things that\u2019s really
\nremarkable that I\u2019ve found through my research is that the chapters of the Odyssey<\/em>
\nand the Aeneid<\/em>, so Odyssey<\/em> eleven and the Aeneid<\/em> six, that
\ndescribed these tours to Hades are some of the most frequently used texts in
\nthose school hands. So, what that tells us is that among the population that
\nwas literate, that was receiving an education, this story would\u2019ve been widely
\nfamiliar and would have been shared. So, it was a part of the kind of
\nunderstanding that you would tell these stories in order to educate audiences.
\nAnd then, of course, Jewish apocalyptic literature, which was very popular
\nduring the lifetime of Jesus, has its own stories and journeys that are
\nsomewhat influenced by these Greco-Roman stories that I\u2019m talking about, but
\nalso takes its own spin on this idea of touring other-worldly spaces and using
\ngraphic details about those other-worldly spaces to make a point and persuade
\naudiences in the present. <\/p>\nPete: Well let\u2019s get to that, the point, what
\nthey\u2019re trying to do with all this in a bit. What I hear you saying is that
\nthis idea of Hades, right, or we might say hell just for arguments sake. A lot
\nof that, it\u2019s, you know, Christianity is sort of dealing and engaging with the
\ncultures around it, which is both Greek and Roman influence and it\u2019s, I mean,
\nit\u2019s maybe an obvious point, but it\u2019s a product of engaging a particular
\nculture and Jews were doing this, but \u2013 <\/p>\n
Meghan: They were. <\/p>\n
9:56<\/p>\n
Pete: These concepts were not part of their own Scripture.
\nAm I \u2013<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right, that\u2019s accurate. <\/p>\n
Pete: I mean, in your opinion? <\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, I did sort of jump over the Hebrew
\nBible, sorry. <\/p>\n
Pete: Well that okay, we all do. <\/p>\n
Meghan: I jumped straight to Jewish apocalypticism.\n<\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter] <\/p>\n
No, that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n
Jared: I mean, that\u2019s a very common mistake for
\nall of us.<\/p>\n
Pete: I know. <\/p>\n
Jared: I go from the Old Testament to Jewish
\napocalypticism every day. <\/p>\n
Pete: Whatever, yeah. <\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly. <\/p>\n
[Laughter]<\/p>\n
Pete: But I guess my question is, I guess my
\npoint is, just so you can comment on is that, this is a foreign concept
\ncompletely in the Hebrew Scriptures, right? <\/p>\n
Meghan: Yes, so the Hebrew Scriptures have the
\nconcept of Sheol, which is not really what we would call a lively afterlife in
\nthe sense that it\u2019s described as dusty and dark. It\u2019s certainly not pleasant,
\nit\u2019s not a place that you want to go, but everybody goes there when they die,
\nso in the Hebrew Bible there\u2019s this idea that, you know, when you die, you go
\nto Sheol and it is described in ways that it\u2019s sometimes confusing to people,
\nbecause when they read the Hebrew Bible, it sounds like hell. And when this
\ntranslation of the Hebrew Bible was made into the Septuagint, they actually
\nused the word Hades to translate Sheol, and so then that creates confusion for
\na lot of people because then that starts to overlap those two concepts, but
\nreally in the Hebrew Bible, it\u2019s a kind of a neutral place where everybody goes
\nafter death and the texts that describe it, or talk about it, do refer to it as
\na place that nobody wants to go, but that\u2019s because in the Hebrew Bible there\u2019s
\nthis tradition of the two ways. And this idea that one way leads to life and
\nabundance, and the other way leads to death. And so, when these texts, Proverbs
\nand Psalms are places where we see a lot of this language, or in Deuteronomy,
\nthe Deuteronomist has a lot of language like this, these texts are describing
\nnot Sheol as a place that you don\u2019t want to go to because it signifies that
\nyou\u2019ve done something wrong, but rather that, to go to Sheol too soon would be
\nto die prematurely. And so, that is negatively valued and seen as a punishment
\nfrom God, but it\u2019s not the idea of hell that we think of that gets developed
\ncenturies later by early Christians. <\/p>\n
Jared: Well, it seems like
\nit\u2019s\u00a0more of this, it\u2019s\u00a0an extension of the idea that you don\u2019t want
\nto die young\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: And Sheol is just,
\nyeah,\u00a0well\u00a0that\u2019s what happens when you die\u00a0and if you die young
\nthat\u2019s not a good thing and so it\u2019s\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And you want to
\nmake\u00a0what,\u00a0choices that\u00a0lead to a fruitful life and a long life,
\nnot \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Right, right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, that\u2019s, I mean, that\u2019s a
\nreally interesting point and I think an important point to make that this idea
\nthat I think a lot of Christians throughout history and today very much, you
\nknow, at least the people we talk to\u00a0a lot \u2013 they just assume that this is
\na thoroughly biblical idea, this afterlife abode which is a place of punishment,
\neven torture and for some traditions \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And bodily torture. That\u2019s
\nwhy I say that Sheol is not really a lively afterlife, because it\u2019s not totally
\nclear that people have bodies there.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
So\u2026\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right. I mean, you really can\u2019t
\ndo anything in Sheol.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: No.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: You can\u2019t even praise God in
\nSheol, so don\u2019t send me there, especially before my time.\u00a0And wanting to
\navoid Sheol is not because I don\u2019t want to go to hell, it\u2019s because I have a
\nlot more living to do \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: And I\u2019d like you to allow me,
\ndon\u2019t let me go down into the pit or\u00a0something.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right, exactly don\u2019t let me
\ngo down into Sheol \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right, right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Before my hairs are gray. So
\nyeah, exactly. You want to live on earth\u00a0as long as\u00a0possible
\n\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And that\u2019s a sign of God\u2019s
\nfavor and abundance in your life.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: So,\u00a0when we get to this,
\nlet\u2019s maybe move forward a little bit.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0So,\u00a0when we get to
\nthe \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: What\u2019s wrong with the Hebrew
\nBible Jared? We like talking about that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Sheesh, man! I\u2019ll tell\u00a0ya.
\nOkay, go ahead.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: We get to this time period, so
\nthe Hebrew Bible\u2019s been written. We\u2019re kind of going through history here, Jesus
\nis born around this time, there\u2019s what you call, you know, this Jewish
\napocalypticism, so there\u2019s these ridings and\u00a0they\u2019re\u00a0influenced by,
\nmaybe, some Greek culture and the Greek idea of Hades. What, you know, how does
\nit change? Because we just went through Sheol, which\u00a0doesn\u2019t\u00a0really
\ngive us a lot to go on, but by the time we get to Jewish apocalyptic
\nliterature, there is, like, what\u2019s the meat to it? What does it start looking
\nlike, what does the afterlife look like that\u2019s different than Sheol?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
14:28\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Well, in the Jewish
\napocalyptic literature, you have descriptions of other-worldly spaces, and
\nso,\u00a0in a text like\u00a01 Enoch for example, you have someone being taken
\non a tour and you have spaces\u00a0where there\u2019s a distinction made between
\nsouls that live different kind of lives and they go to different, they\u2019re kind
\nof like pits or hollows that these different, four different types of souls
\ndwell in. So,\u00a0you have in 1 Enoch, and in other apocalyptic texts from
\nthis time, this idea of what we call the differentiation of fates, which is
\njust a fancy way of talking about different kinds of souls going different
\nplaces. And this\u00a0can be
\nseen as\u00a0continuous,\u00a0for the Jewish
\npeople,\u00a0this is continuous\u00a0with this idea of the tradition of the two
\nways, right? You live one kind of life and you live for a very long
\ntime;\u00a0you live a different kind of life and you go down to Sheol too soon,
\nright? But now, the difference is in these apocalyptic texts, right,
\nthat\u00a0actually leads\u00a0to different kinds of after death experiences
\nwhereas the concept of Sheol was everyone goes to\u00a0\u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Which seems fair, right? I
\nmean, I\u2019m not being facetious, but that seems fair for that to happen because
\nwhy would someone who leads a long, righteous life wind up in the same
\nplace?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right. And so,\u00a0what you
\nhave in the\u00a0Hellenistic\u00a0period is under the pressures of the empire,
\nyou have the apocalyptic texts developing ideas of the afterlife that are both
\ninfluenced by Greek and Roman ideas, right? So, this idea of differentiation of
\nfates looks different from, but also not totally distinct from what we see in
\nPlato, for example, right? In the\u00a0Republic<\/em>, there\u2019s this idea of,
\nyou know, the trans-migration of souls, and different souls that live different
\nkinds of lives going to different spaces after death. And so, you end up in
\nJewish apocalyptic literature starting to see overlap with some of these
\nGreco-Roman ideas, and you also get this in an\u00a0apocalyptic\u00a0text
\nthat\u00a0may, in some cases, be influenced by the pressure of living
\nunder\u00a0Roman rule.\u00a0So, it\u2019s during this time period that we end up
\nseeing early Christian authors who are deeply influenced by this apocalyptic
\nliterature invoking language that shares a heritage with both the Greco-Roman
\nculture that they\u2019re a part of, the Hebrew Bible tradition of the two ways
\nwhere you could, you know, make life choices that lead to different outcomes,
\nand then these Jewish apocalyptic texts. And all of this really funnels into
\nwhat we have represented in some of the New Testament texts that talk about
\nthese different other-worldly spaces.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nJared: So, the New Testament you
\nwould say is participating in some way in this differentiation of fates way of
\nthinking, meaning, you can make choices, and, I mean, you can make choices in
\nthis life that lead to different outcomes in the afterlife.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yes, and I will say, I should
\nsay that it is, that is a distinctive Meghan Henning idea.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: That a lot of twentieth
\ncentury Bible scholarship, actually how I got interested in this topic is that
\nI was reading some New Testament theology book by Rudolph Bultmann\u00a0and he
\nwas writing it, you know, earlier in the twentieth century and he was really
\nkeen to try and say, well yeah, there\u2019s these texts in the New Testament that
\ntalk about Hades or Gehenna, but you know, those are really, the Hades texts
\nare all, those are all, it\u2019s Greek and Roman ideas and that\u2019s not really the
\ntrue essential kernel of\u00a0the New Testament, and I thought, well, wouldn\u2019t
\nit be convenient if that was true.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0And that started me down
\nthis road of thinking and noticing that most of the scholarship of the
\ntwentieth century was a kind of a scholarly game of hot potato where
\ntheir\u00a0different\u00a0scholars are trying to pin the blame of hell on
\ndifferent people groups basically.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And so I\u2019ve really taken a
\ndifferent approach in my own work and said, you know, if Jesus, if we know
\nJesus is using apocalyptic language in other places, it\u2019s probably not fair to
\nassume that somehow this apocalyptic language wasn\u2019t really, he didn\u2019t really
\nmean it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, he\u2026right, right,
\nright.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And instead, it\u2019s probably
\nmost fruitful to be honest about what\u2019s there and say, yeah, there\u2019s this terminology
\nabout Gehenna and about Hades, but what\u2019s happening by the end of the first
\ncentury when the Gospel authors are using this terminology is that they are
\nreally starting to develop an idea of a lively afterlife \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: In which there\u2019s rewards and
\nthere\u2019s punishments. And so, I do think that first century Christian texts that
\nwe call the New Testament do have the beginnings of an idea of hell. It\u2019s
\ncertainly not the developed idea that we think of though when we think of hell
\ntoday. Like people are always like, oh, do you study\u00a0Satan, and I\u2019m like,
\nwell, in the New Testament texts you really don\u2019t get a lot of Satan, right?
\nThere\u2019s not \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Mmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: We think of hell as this,
\nreally, when we think of hell in the contemporary world, it looks a lot more
\nlike what Dante described in his\u00a0Inferno<\/em>, and that work is really
\nindebted to second through fourth century Christian ideas about hell that
\nreally take what\u2019s in the New Testament and amp it up \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nPete: Mm hmm, yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Times ten.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
19:57\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: To say the least. Now Meghan, you
\nmentioned\u00a0Gehenna,\u00a0so\u00a0explain what that is and what it means
\nand\u00a0that should take you three seconds,\u00a0right?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, no problem, no problem.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0So, but,\u00a0ya\u00a0know, that\u2019s a concept
\nthat\u00a0normally, not normally, but\u00a0often translated as hell by English
\ntranslations which is very unfortunate,\u00a0but just, yeah. So,\u00a0what is
\nit?\u00a0What is it and what do we do with it?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, so,\u00a0Gehenna is itself a reference to,
\nand\u00a0that term\u00a0actually\u00a0also\u00a0occurs in the Hebrew Bible.
\nIt\u2019s in the Hebrew Bible,\u00a0it mostly likely refers to an actual, it
\ndoes\u00a0refer to an actual\u00a0valley, the Valley of\u00a0Hinnom.\u00a0It\u2019s
\na valley that\u2019s associated specifically with\u00a0idolatrous acts of
\nnon-Israelite peoples that said to include child sacrifice, so it is, and it\u2019s
\nalso thought to be a place, so this valley is in Isaiah 66
\ngets\u00a0specifically\u00a0associated with that\u00a0imagery of people who are
\nnot following the God of Israel\u00a0and\u00a0who are reaping
\nthe\u00a0consequences\u00a0of that, right?\u00a0And it becomes\u00a0a kind of,
\nso the Valley of Gehenna or\u00a0Hinnom\u00a0become this kind of monument to
\nthe idea of there being\u00a0consequences\u00a0for\u00a0not following God, but
\nthat idea of it being a physical place by the time\u00a0Christians start
\nreferring to it in the New Testament text, has already started
\nin\u00a0apocalyptic\u00a0literature to refer more generally to the idea of
\nthere being a kind of\u00a0fiery\u00a0place of punishment or
\na\u00a0fiery\u00a0space that would be a place where people were isolated for
\nthe\u00a0things\u00a0that\u00a0they had done in their life.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Would that be an afterlife thing or not?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Yeah, so in the\u00a0apocalyptic literature, it has
\nalready started to refer to, so that\u2019s the thing, I have heard many,\u00a0in my
\nlifetime\u00a0I have heard many sermons where\u00a0people will say,\u00a0\u201coh
\nyou know, Gehenna was this trash heap and it was this place of fire.\u201d\u00a0So,
\nall that stuff about the garbage\u00a0dump\u00a0outside of Jerusalem,
\nthere\u2019s\u00a0no, there\u2019s\u00a0been some articles published, there\u2019s no
\narchaeological evidence for that\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And it was not, it was really, by the
\npoint\u00a0that\u00a0the New Testament was written, it was\u00a0already kind
\nof\u00a0well-known as\u00a0a monument to infidelity and\u00a0then\u00a0an
\nafterlife space.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0So,\u00a0it had already become known as a way of
\ntalking about the\u00a0afterlife?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah.\u00a0So that\u2019s the thing that makes it, it\u2019s
\nimportant, I do think it\u2019s important to recognize that the New Testament
\nauthors are not using one word for hell.\u00a0They are using\u00a0Gehenna,
\nthey\u2019re using Hades, in one case, they\u2019re using Tartarus. In Revelation they\u2019re
\nusing\u00a0a lake of\u00a0fire, there\u2019s all these different concepts that are
\nin the New Testament texts because they still don\u2019t have, they\u2019re still working
\nthis out. We have a bunch of different concepts being used to gesture towards
\nthe idea of eternal punishment. And that\u2019s part of an early developing notion
\nof eternal punishment.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0So, okay, I like the way you put that. They\u2019re working
\nit out.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Which,\u00a0because\u00a0it\u2019s a newish idea, and it\u2019s
\nprobably a bit flexible\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm, exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: And it\u2019s used in different ways by different people. So, we
\nhave this New Testament which is supposed to be clear and tell us exactly
\nwhat\u2019s what.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Music begins]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0But it\u2019s a little more complicated than that it sounds
\nlike.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, by\u00a0just a bit.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Juuuust\u00a0a bit.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Producer group endorsement]\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Music ends]\u00a0<\/p>\n
24:57\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Well\u00a0I\u2019m trying\u00a0to,\u00a0I\u2019m trying to,\u00a0I\u2019m
\ngoing down a few different parallel\u00a0tracks.\u00a0Because\u00a0on the one
\nhand, we have this influence of Jewish apocalypticism, which by the New
\nTestament\u2019s\u00a0definitely taking\u00a0on this afterlife flavor, even if the
\nconcepts are still being thrown around.\u00a0We\u2019re not exactly sure what to
\ndo\u00a0with\u00a0it. But earlier you said something that maybe is worth
\nbringing back up, which was this method, this\u00a0paideia<\/em>,\u00a0and
\nyou\u2019ve mentioned a few times that in a lot of these stories, there\u2019s a journey
\nto Hades\u00a0\u2013\u00a0<\/p>\nMeghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: And there\u2019s lessons learned, and it reminds me kind of
\nthis\u00a0dominant kind of meta\u00a0metaphor\u00a0of\u00a0life is a
\njourney\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Mmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0And you\u2019re going down that\u00a0path and you\u2019re
\nlearning lessons along the way. So, at first, I was excited about that, because
\nI was thinking,\u00a0oh! Well,\u00a0I\u2019ve never heard that, maybe that\u2019s kind of
\nwhat Jesus is doing here in the New Testament to bring these up and talk
\nabout\u00a0kind of\u00a0life is a journey, there\u2019s a way of going on these
\nthings you\u2019re going to learn, these lessons, but then, there\u2019s definitely an
\ninfluence of this apocalyptic afterlife\u00a0as well.\u00a0And\u00a0I\u2019m having
\na hard time putting those\u00a0two\u00a0thoughts together.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Perfect.\u00a0So, the apocalyptic literature itself draws
\nupon this idea of a journey or a tour. So, the idea that you are being taken on
\na tour by a guide is used in,\u00a0for example,\u00a01\u00a0Enoch,\u00a0as an
\nexample of a Jewish apocalyptic text.\u00a0So, it\u2019s not just in the Greek and
\nRoman tour literature, but also in the Jewish tours. And so, we get this idea
\nthat, so both the Gospel authors and the audience of the Gospel\u00a0authors
\nwould\u00a0have been aware of this idea of going on a tour
\nof\u00a0other-worldy\u00a0spaces in order to learn something. Whether they were
\nfamiliar with it through\u00a0exposure to\u00a0Jewish apocalyptic ideas or through
\nthe more, the broader Hellenistic curriculum of learning about the afterlife on
\ntours of\u00a0Hades. So\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: So\u00a0maybe there\u2019s not like a clear
\nline\u00a0that\u00a0we can draw between this.\u00a0You go on these tours and
\nyou learn these lessons in these narratives and an
\nactual,\u00a0historical\u00a0\u2013\u00a0historical is not even the right
\nword\u00a0\u2013\u00a0uh,\u00a0metaphysical\u00a0\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Place.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Reality of this afterlife, maybe that\u2019s a distinction we\u2019re
\ntrying to make that maybe wouldn\u2019t have fit\u00a0in the New Testament.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly.\u00a0I agree.\u00a0So,\u00a0I think that\u2019s a distinction
\nthat we want the text to answer that question and I think that the text
\nis\u00a0actually trying\u00a0to answer a different set of questions.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0The set of questions that I think Jesus and the
\nGospel authors are trying to answer\u00a0through these stories is,\u00a0how
\nshould I live today?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Okay, so that sort of raises a question that I\u2019ve been
\npondering here for the last few seconds as you were talking,
\nbut\u00a0Jesus.\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about Jesus.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0So, you weren\u2019t listening to her; is that what you\u2019re
\nsaying?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0I was listening and pondering.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0You were thinking what you were going to say.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Listening, pondering. Exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Yes, thank you. I multi-task, but.\u00a0So,\u00a0did,
\nthis is one of these stupid modern questions. I\u2019m trying not to ask the wrong
\nquestion.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Okay,\u00a0so\u00a0let\u2019s talk about Jesus. Was Jesus
\nthinking\u00a0of, from what we can tell, right,\u00a0from the world around him
\nand what\u2019s developing\u00a0at this moment. When Jesus says\u00a0Gehenna, is he
\nthinking of an afterlife place of punishment or is\u00a0Jesus\u00a0using
\nthe\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0of his\u00a0tradition to motivate change in the people
\nthat he\u2019s talking to?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0The times\u00a0where\u00a0he uses the language,
\nwhether it\u2019s\u00a0Gehenna\u00a0or\u00a0Hades, are context of\u00a0ethical
\ninstruction. So, it\u2019s possible that people hearing this would\u2019ve also thought
\nof a metaphysical space.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0But,\u00a0what I know for sure, and that is
\nlike,\u00a0since I don\u2019t have a telekinetic connection with the historical
\nJesus or his audience, I can guess they might have thought that, but I don\u2019t
\nknow.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0But\u00a0what I can tell from looking at the
\ntexts\u00a0today, is that they\u2019re using this language to try and persuade
\naudiences to behave in particular ways.\u00a0So,\u00a0for example,\u00a0you
\nknow,\u00a0Matthew 25, right?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Oh yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
29:22\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Is a place where we see this language, and it\u2019s quite
\nclear that the\u00a0whole story\u00a0about the sheep and the goats has
\nsome\u00a0pretty\u00a0specific\u00a0things, right? And the question that gets
\nasked,\u00a0well wait,\u00a0we didn\u2019t know it was you,\u00a0is\u00a0followed
\nwith\u00a0an answer of, like,\u00a0very specific\u00a0instructions\u00a0about
\nwell,\u00a0you should do this for the least of these.\u00a0You should feed the
\nhungry,\u00a0and\u00a0clothe the naked,\u00a0and tend to the sick,
\nright?\u00a0That\u2019s all very specific\u00a0ethical instruction that then is also
\na callback to the Sermon on the Mount,\u00a0which is another place where we get
\nthis language in Matthew\u2019s gospel as well.\u00a0And so, there are multiple
\nplaces where it\u2019s quite clear that the language of weeping and gnashing of teeth
\nor the language of\u00a0Hades or\u00a0Gehenna\u00a0is tied specifically to an
\nethical lesson. You get the same thing in Luke 16, right?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Which is where people get the idea from of if you\u2019re
\nbad you go to hell and are tortured forever.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Where do they get that idea?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0No, they get it from that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yes, exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0From a misreading, let\u2019s say, of the intentionality
\nof\u00a0Gehenna\u00a0or\u00a0Hades.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: And\u00a0so, again,\u00a0we\u2019re sort of back to, because I\u2019m
\ntrying to wrap my head around this,\u00a0because this is sort
\nof\u00a0important,\u00a0I think, and\u00a0I know\u00a0really important\u00a0for
\npeople listening to this too.\u00a0
\nThe\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0of\u00a0Gehenna\/Hades, it\u00a0has a function. Okay,
\nlet\u2019s put it this way, I really hope that if you call your brother an
\nempty-headed idiot\u00a0as in the Sermon on the Mount,\u00a0or if you\u2019re angry
\nwith your brother,\u00a0if\u00a0you hate him in your heart or something, you\u2019re
\ngoing to hell forever to burn. I hope that\u2019s not true.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm, right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0I really hope Jesus isn\u2019t saying that.\u00a0He doesn\u2019t
\nseem to be saying that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: No.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Well,\u00a0I have an interesting thing I want to test with
\nyou,\u00a0Meghan, and I just came up with it ten seconds ago, so it\u2019s maybe not
\nas brilliant as it seems right now. But\u00a0the, I just can\u2019t help but think
\nback to Deuteronomy.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: And if we take it to that context and we have these you
\nknow\u00a0[Deuteronomy] 28-32 or something\u00a0where we have the blessings
\nand\u00a0cursings. When we have these ethical\u00a0pronouncements of how
\nnow\u00a0shall you\u00a0live, there tends to be some level of accountability.
\nLike in the ancient world, I would say even in the modern world, we think
\nof\u00a0consequences\u00a0and accountability if you don\u2019t behave in these
\nways.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0And back then, in the\u00a0Deuteronomic texts, it
\nwould\u2019ve been, there\u2019s an oppressing army that will come and wipe you out as a
\npeople.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0And in the same way that we don\u2019t think today, if I
\ndisobey God, that somehow, well there are some traditions
\nthat\u00a0would\u00a0still have this, but that somehow the enemy armies
\nof\u00a0an oppressing nation are going to come and wipe us out, like that\u2019s not
\nwhat we think of as the ethical\u00a0conclusion\u00a0of my misbehaving.\u00a0I
\nthink it\u2019s just as \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: No, right.\u00a0We don\u2019t expect for, like,\u00a0the earth
\nto\u00a0open up\u00a0and for us to be\u00a0smitten.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0Exactly. And in the same way, maybe, for
\nme,\u00a0that\u2019s an analogy to repeat what you\u2019re\u00a0saying, which is, why
\nthen do we think no,\u00a0no,\u00a0no.\u00a0But when Jesus says if you do wrong
\nyou\u2019re going to hell forever, why do we take that then as like the literal
\nthing that will happen when we\u00a0kind of\u00a0have this other context in the
\nOld Testament where, no,\u00a0it\u2019s a cultural way of talking
\nabout\u00a0consequences\u00a0of ethical misbehaving and Jesus is doing the same
\nthing in an apocalyptic way and we have our own way\u00a0of doing that and so
\nit does frame it for me. Is that an appropriate analogy?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Oh, absolutely.\u00a0And one of the things,\u00a0I
\nmean, what you were saying too about, so,\u00a0the Deuteronomist\u00a0is a
\ngreat example, right? That we read that,\u00a0and we have a sense of how
\nancient audiences would read that. And so,\u00a0to think about what\u2019s going on
\nin the New Testament text\u00a0is equally appropriate.\u00a0\u00a0To understand
\nthat Jesus is using\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0of his time\u00a0in order to
\nreally\u00a0bring home an ethical message for his audience\u00a0and to get them
\nto take it seriously.\u00a0And one of the things\u00a0I think\u00a0that people
\nmisunderstand\u00a0sometimes, so you\u2019re
\nsaying\u00a0it\u2019s\u00a0just\u00a0rhetoric?\u00a0And I\u2019m saying,
\n\u201cno!\u201d\u00a0There\u2019s no such thing as
\njust\u00a0rhetoric.\u00a0Rhetoric\u00a0is\u00a0actually really\u00a0important.
\nRight?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0You use it when you really want to make a point and
\nyou want to make it clear and well.\u00a0 It also means that,\u00a0because it\u2019s
\nnot\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0we use in the same way in the contemporary world, we
\nhave maximal opportunity to misunderstand it. I mean, one of the things, you
\nknow, if\u00a0we think about, like you said, if we think about the ethical
\ncommands that are tied to this in the New\u00a0Testament, then
\nthe\u00a0conclusion\u00a0that we draw is that if there is a hell, we\u2019re all going.
\nBecause no one has upheld the entirety of that pronouncement. But if we think
\nof this as\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0that Jesus is really quite serious about and
\ntrying to drive home,\u00a0what we find is that the emphasis\u00a0in these
\ntexts is really on care for the other and concern for the marginalized and that
\ntheme, even as the intensity of hell gets amped up in the early Christian
\nperiod\u00a0in the tours of hell that come later, that\u00a0theme is still
\ncarried forward. So even the earliest readers of these texts understood on some
\nlevel that the real point here is about how you\u00a0treat others.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
34:39\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0that\u2019s helpful. I\u2019m stuck on something here
\nthough.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Great.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0I\u2019m such a modern person I don\u2019t get it, but I\u2019m trying
\nto put myself in this space of ancient people and\u00a0to be
\npersuaded\u00a0by\u00a0rhetoric, there has to be\u00a0\u2013\u00a0maybe there
\ndoesn\u2019t, maybe I just don\u2019t get it\u00a0\u2013\u00a0but I would think there has to
\nbe some connection between what is said and here is the
\nmodern\u00a0word,\u00a0reality.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Yes.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0Otherwise, it\u2019s just, listen, you\u2019re just using a bunch
\nof hyped-up\u00a0hyperbolic\u00a0language\u00a0here\u00a0about fire and
\ntorture\u00a0and whatever, but we all know that\u2019s not, another modern word,
\ntrue. Right? So, help me through that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Yeah, good. So, one of the things that ancient\u00a0rhetoricians
\nwould\u2019ve said about this is that\u00a0rhetoric,
\nvisual\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0especially,\u00a0only works if your audience can
\npicture it in front of their own eyes, so you\u00a0have to\u00a0use language
\nthat\u2019s familiar. You know, if I start talking about something and you\u2019ve never
\nseen it before, you can\u2019t draw it up in your imagination no matter how hard you
\ntry, right? But it also\u00a0has to\u00a0have\u00a0verisimilitude, or what I
\ntell my students\u00a0means truthiness, right?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm. Yes.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: It\u00a0has to\u00a0resonate as true on some level. And
\nso, even if audiences could call up the image, they also had to understand or
\nbelieve that it was somehow had some truth to it. Now, whether that is a
\nmetaphysical truth or whether that is an acknowledgement or an assent that,
\nyes, you know, the wicked have justice meted out to theme in some way
\nultimately, and yes, the righteous have justice meted out to them in some way
\nultimately, you know? It\u2019s hard to know what the metaphysical commitment was
\n\u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: For the audience, but for sure on some level if
\nthis\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0did work, and it seems to have worked for some time,
\nthere had to be some level of truth to it among the people using it. They had
\nto have some sense that it was, it had what I would call\u00a0verisimilitude or
\ntruthiness to it.\u00a0But, you also get someone like the ancient geographer
\nStrabo, who said, well yeah, you know, the myths that we tell, because he was
\ntalking about education, and he said, yeah, the myths that we tell in
\neducation, it doesn\u2019t really matter if they are true or not. The point is that
\nthe persuade our students, right? And they can still have value in them, even
\nif we don\u2019t think that everything that is in the myths, and he was talking
\nabout specifically about Homer. But even if everything in the myths isn\u2019t true,
\nit still has a pedagogical value. So, I think there were different levels of
\ncommitment to the\u00a0rhetoric.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0But there\u2019s a bit of a difference there between like,
\nI resonate with Aesop\u2019s Fables because I resonate with the wisdom of the
\npoint.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yes.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: And I don\u2019t need it to be historically accurate to get
\nvalue out of it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: That\u2019s true. Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Which feels different than, here are these ethical
\nframeworks and if you don\u2019t do them, here is something\u00a0really
\nbad\u00a0that will happen to you.\u00a0Don\u2019t worry, if the really bad thing
\nhappens, that hell will happen to you,\u00a0will\u00a0actually happen\u00a0to
\nyou or not.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Like, that feels like\u00a0a different, feels like we\u2019re
\ncomparing apples and oranges. But I also did want to mention that I think
\nthere\u2019s\u00a0something\u00a0to, I keep coming back to the idea that you said
\nthat this isn\u2019t really settled, so it\u2019s not a clear concept.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: It\u2019s not.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0In a lot of ways, that\u00a0actually helps\u00a0the
\npersuasion of it, because I think of a concept like today, in today\u2019s world, I
\nthink of the concept of karma.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Where like, a lot of modern Americans, I just know people
\nthat will, like, use it. And if I were to\u00a0actually drill\u00a0down and
\nsay, like, what do, like, they really are afraid of karma. That is something
\nthat persuades them.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: That like, if I put good into the world,\u00a0I\u2019ll get good
\nback. If I put bad into the world, I get bad back. It\u2019s kind of like,
\nDeuteronomic theology all over again. But, if I ask them to like, drill down,
\nwell like, tell me the mechanics of karma. Like, how does it actually,
\nhow\u00a0does\u00a0it actually happen? Especially if they don\u2019t believe in a
\npersonal God or something who exacts this kind of justice.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: It\u2019s sort of, it\u2019s a fuzzy concept.\u00a0And actually,
\nthe\u00a0fuzziness is what\u2019s more compelling about it. Because if you ask them,
\nto like, break it down into the mechanics of, well exactly tell me how if I do
\nthis good for someone, a good thing\u2019s\u00a0gonna\u00a0happen to me later.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: I don\u2019t understand. And so, there\u2019s some way in which the
\nambiguity, I guess, of the mechanics of hell and dying forever and burning, it
\nplays to the advantage here, I think, of the\u00a0rhetoric.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yes. There\u2019s no question that in the first century this
\nconcept is being\u00a0developed. So, it is\u00a0definitely at\u00a0its
\nbeginnings and the more\u00a0developed\u00a0idea that we think of when we think
\nof hell in the contemporary world is really an invention of late antiquity and
\nmedieval Christianity.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
39:42\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0So, in some ways it\u2019s impossible for us to understand
\nhell as they would have, because we already \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: It\u2019s\u00a0really hard\u00a0to\u00a0unknow it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Right. We already have all this stuff,\u00a0we poured it
\ninto\u00a0us.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: That\u2019s exactly right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0All\u00a0those vivid\u00a0images and things like that,
\nthat\u2019s part of our reality.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly, that\u2019s what I would call our visual vocabulary
\nand what kind of \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Oh yeah! That\u2019s a great\u00a0phrase. I\u2019m stealing
\nthat.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, well, I should tell you I stole it from Quintilian.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Well nobody knows who that is, so,\u00a0ya\u00a0know.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Good.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: So, I guess, here\u2019s, let me. Okay, here\u2019s what I\u2019m hearing.
\nAncient people probably truly believe there
\nare\u00a0consequences\u00a0for\u00a0actions, and if they forgot then they need
\nto be reminded of it by people like Jesus or Paul or whoever. And
\nthe\u00a0rhetoric\u00a0of hell and Gehenna and Hades and all that, that\u2019s a
\nvery vivid way of\u00a0expressing that, let\u2019s call it truth, or that reality,
\nthat there are\u00a0consequences. What that\u2019s\u00a0actually going\u00a0to look
\nlike, who the heck knows?\u00a0But it\u2019s a way of communicating to the people in
\nways they understand in these, their visual vocabulary they already have. And
\nthat, to me, that\u2019s like\u00a0a really important\u00a0insight, because it\u2019s
\njust another example of, well, what Jared was just sort of implying that context
\nis very important, right? And we can\u2019t get into people\u2019s heads and we read
\nthese texts and we right\u00a0away bring them into our visual vocabulary which
\nhas been probably a distorted lens.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right, for 1500 years or so. And to get back into that investigation
\nis, maybe, very healing for people who are just freaking out about, you know,
\nmy relative died and\u00a0\u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: What is going to happen?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: They\u2019re burning conscious. Well you know, that\u2019s the thing
\ntoo. What struck me early on as you started talking, Meghan, when we\u2019re
\ntalking\u00a0about, like, you know, where this notion of hell\u00a0developed.
\nAlong with that is really, maybe,\u00a0a different kind of interest in
\nafterlife in general.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: And I think these things, it\u2019s rather obvious that they go
\ntogether, and, you know, that\u2019s something that preoccupies religious people
\ntypically, at least Christians it does.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Absolutely.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Jews, not\u00a0as\u00a0much. But Christians, I think it
\nreally does. Like, where do\u00a0ya\u00a0go?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: It\u2019s a big one.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: What do you do? Let\u2019s see what the Bible says.
\nOkay!\u00a0Bang, bang. There\u00a0ya\u00a0have it,\u00a0and the two ways, you
\nknow, and there\u2019s just, I just think there\u2019s a lot at stake here for our
\nown\u00a0paideia,\u00a0<\/em>our own education, our own training to\u00a0think
\nabout this maybe with fresh eyes and to admit that maybe a lot of our
\ntheologies have been distorted.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nMeghan: Yeah. And to reassess if Jesus, if this is\u00a0rhetoric,
\nif this is Jesus and early Christians using the visual\u00a0vocabulary of their
\nown time in order to persuade and educate those around them to behave
\nin\u00a0particular\u00a0ways. If we want to think about what we can learn from
\nthat for the contemporary world, then we might need to ask ourselves is this a lesson
\nabout what the afterlife is\u00a0actually\u00a0like, or is this a lesson about
\nhow we could use the visual vocabulary and the\u00a0rhetorical tools of our
\ncontemporary world in order to bring life and healing and education to people
\nas well.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Uh huh. Right. I appreciate\u00a0the way you put that. We
\nfollow Jesus best by\u00a0employing our own visual vocabulary to try to affect
\nsomething that it seems like Jesus was trying to affect. And not copy the
\nvocabulary and then distorting it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Exactly.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah. But what, okay, so what do we do? How do we tell
\npeople they\u2019re going to hell?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
How do we say that? Or have I missed the point entirely?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete\u00a0missed the boat. He missed the boat, yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: I think that\u2019s a great title for my next book!\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: You\u2019re going to Disney World!\u00a0You\u2019re going to Disney
\nWorld! Okay, that\u2019s it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: How to tell people they\u2019re going to hell. Okay.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: You\u2019re going to a mall parking lot!\u00a0Do\u00a0you want to
\nspend\u00a0your eternity in a mall parking lot?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0If you don\u2019t do what Jesus says, yeah, you\u2019re going to
\nthe mall.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Continued laughter from all]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right, right. I think we do have to be creative.\u00a0I
\nmean, one of the things that was really troubling for me as I was starting to
\ndo this work, and I do work with my students on apocalyptic\u00a0rhetoric in a
\ncontemporary world with film and movies and tv is that given\u00a0ability to
\ndepict kind of like, the most extreme violent situation we can possibly imagine
\non the screen,\u00a0I think, actually, that\u00a0the rhetoric of violence is
\ndone. I don\u2019t think that that is productive in the contemporary world in the
\nsame way that it might have been in antiquity.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: And I also think that we\u2019ve learned in thousands of years
\nwhat the,\u00a0also,\u00a0what the kind of consequences\u00a0for using that
\nkind of rhetoric might be.\u00a0In a way that, in the early period of the
\ninception of this idea that wasn\u2019t quite as clear.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Right.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0So, that\u2019s\u00a0actually what\u00a0my next project is
\nabout in some sense, in terms of thinking about, okay, what are the other,
\nwhat\u2019s kind of the dark side of this rhetoric as it gets developed.\u00a0<\/p>\n
44:50\u00a0<\/p>\n
But, in terms of your original question about, you know, what, how
\ndo we, how do we package this and think about this, I, first of all, I like to
\nthink about, okay, what are the ethical norms that are being communicated, so
\nwhat are the things that are tied to this idea, and\u00a0then how would I
\ncommunicate those things persuasively in the contemporary world and does that
\neven get tied to the afterlife, or does that get tied to other things that
\nmotivate people in the present world?\u00a0Because certainly, afterlife is a
\nbig one, but probably, I think the last Pew
\nsurvey\u00a0maybe\u00a0said\u00a0sixty\u00a0percent of the population believes
\nin an\u00a0afterlife? So, maybe there\u2019s something else.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Well, that\u2019s what I was thinking is, you know, is even just
\nthinking through sermons that I\u2019ve heard over the years, and the dominant
\nmetaphors and ways of talking have shifted. And I think a lot of times now I
\nhear the language, of say, like, health \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: You know, if we don\u2019t do this, like, think of the health of
\nour community, or the health of our\u00a0marriage, or the health of our \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Mm hmm.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete:\u00a0So,\u00a0go to health?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: From hell to health?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, you go to health. Yeah.\u00a0From hell to health,
\nthere\u00a0ya\u00a0go. There\u2019s your title.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: There it is!\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Continued laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: There\u2019s your title right there.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: You\u2019re welcome.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: You\u2019re welcome.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: You\u2019re welcome\u00a0Meghan.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Thanks guys.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0But I think that is, you know, it is something that I
\ndo think we intuitively, if we pay attention to the language we use, I think as
\ncommunities of faith we intuitively do that. We pick it up and we drop off
\nthings that are no longer useful and we pick up things that resonate more and
\nso, that\u2019s just something I\u2019ve observed is that language of health and natural
\nconsequences. Like you said,\u00a0it\u2019s not always the\u00a0metaphysical, you
\nknow, if you don\u2019t then this will happen to you when you die. It\u2019s more, it
\nfeels to me, maybe it\u2019s just part of faith communities that I\u2019m a part of, but
\nit feels\u00a0more immediate, it feels more naturalistic, it feels more \u2013\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Intuitive!\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0Yeah, intuitive, like \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Not a conscious deliberation of what to say.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: If we don\u2019t take care of the earth, it\u2019s not, you\u2019re going
\nto go to hell when you die. It\u2019s if you don\u2019t take care of the earth, we won\u2019t have
\nan earth.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Right. Our children will not be able to enjoy the things
\nthat we enjoy, yeah, yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, I think that\u2019s\u00a0really interesting.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jard: Well, unfortunately, we are coming to the end of our time.
\nWe\u2019ve been stretching it,\u00a0because it\u2019s so fascinating.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Thanks.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jard:\u00a0We\u2019ve been trying to go longer here, but what, you
\nmentioned a project that you\u2019re currently working on. Maybe you can say a
\nminute of that and where people can find you online if they want to continue to
\ntalk about hell with you or tell you that you\u2019re wrong.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Excellent. Yes, so you can find me online on\u00a0Twitter
\nand Facebook and Meghan Henning. My next project is, I\u2019m working on gender and
\ndisability and\u00a0early Christian concepts of hell. The book is called\u00a0Hell
\nHeath\u00a0No Fury<\/em>\u00a0and is about, specifically, how this violent
\nlanguage that gets developed in the later tours of hell in late antiquity and
\nthe early\u00a0medieval\u00a0period really runs with this first century
\nChristian idea and then becomes what we know today from Dante as this torturous
\nplace, but it really ends up using\u00a0gendered ideas of the body from
\nantiquity to depict people as female and disabled and how, and has really
\nserious consequences, I argue, for the way that we think about bodies in the
\ncontemporary world.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nJared: That\u2019s fascinating.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Wow, yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Well, we may have to have you back on to just keep this
\nconversation right trucking along into the medieval period at some point.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: I would love that.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Mm hmm, yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Awesome. Well, thanks so much Meghan, for coming on, really
\nappreciate it.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Thank you!\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Thanks so much, see\u00a0ya.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Great to talk to you, bye.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Music begins]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Well thanks everyone for joining in for another exciting
\nepisode \u2013\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yup.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Of the\u00a0Bible for Normal People<\/em>.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nPete: Yeah, all about hell. Hey folks, don\u2019t forget the pay what
\nyou want course. Pay what you want course! March 26, 8:30 PM,\u00a0for\u00a0one
\nhour, Eastern Time, talking about how to read the Bible as an adult. We hope to
\nsee\u00a0ya\u00a0there.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: We\u2019ll see\u00a0ya\u00a0next week for another episode of
\nthe\u00a0Bible for Normal People<\/em>, and we\u2019ll see you March 26 at 8:30
\nPM.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\nPete: Absolutely, see\u00a0ya.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Music ends]\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Outtakes]\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Beep]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Before we get to that, just introduce yourself to our
\nreaders. Give us a little bit of your background\u2026\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: They\u2019re listeners, not readers.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay, we\u2019re going to start that over again Dave, because I
\ndon\u2019t know what medium we\u2019re dealing with.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: [Laughter]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay. Can we start all over again?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Meghan? Okay, let\u2019s start all over.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Yeah, of course.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: I\u2019ve never made a mistake before Jared. How did this
\nhappen?\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared:\u00a0I know!\u00a0Yeah, sorry. He\u2019s short circuiting over
\nthere.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Okay, I\u2019ll get it right and fix myself there.\u00a0They\u2019re
\nlisteners, you idiot. They\u2019re listeners. Okay, alright. Start again. Ready
\nDave? Dave, stop. I know you\u2019re laughing\u00a0Dave.\u00a0I know you\u2019re
\nlaughing. So, okay.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Beep]\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan:\u00a0Well, you know, it\u2019s Lent, so it\u2019s a good time to
\ntalk about hell.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Good.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, perfect! That\u2019s right.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
Meghan: Seasonally appropriate.\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Beep]\u00a0<\/p>\n<\/div>\n
\n
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