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0:00<\/p>\n
Pete: You\u2019re listening to The Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I\u2019m Pete Enns.<\/p>\n
Jared: And I\u2019m Jared Byas.<\/p>\n
[Jaunty intro music]<\/p>\n
Jared: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the episode. Before we get started, just an update on the campaign that we mentioned last week. It was one week only, but you didn\u2019t even need a week \u2013 we raised that support within just a couple of days, and we could not be more thrilled.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yayyyy!\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: So, our goal was $40,000. As of today, right this minute, I mean, probably that\u2019s not true, $44,378.50. Which is more than $40,000.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: I thought it was like, $800,000 or something like that.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: You were misinformed.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Someone didn\u2019t tell me the truth. Anyway, but that\u2019s, yeah. That\u2019s still amazing. Listen, we have a lot of people to thank. Two team members who were just instrumental in making this work \u2013 Stephanie Speight and Tessa Stultz.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Absolutely. And thank you so much to Sarah Bessey and Brian McLaren, who jumped on, provided some wonderful affirmations of the work that we\u2019re trying to do. Really appreciate their support.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, and, you know, obviously most of all \u2013 all you people who are just so generous and just, you know, it\u2019s very, it just blows us away, you know, that we had so much support so quickly and it\u2019s really gonna help us.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, and I think, for me, I don\u2019t know about you, but it really galvanizes kind of our passion for the work and the mission of bringing the best in biblical scholarship to everyday people and seeing the need and seeing that a lot of people are in it with us, I think, it just means a lot.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, it\u2019s fantastic. So, it\u2019s going to help us continue doing things like, you know, Nerds-in-Residence which we\u2019ve talked about having, bringing scholars on to partner with us in bringing just amazing content to all of you.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, and just accessibility. Bringing more free content to everyone that we can get our hands on. That sounds creepy. But, ya know\u2026<\/p>\n
Pete: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
Jared: Metaphorically. Digitally speaking.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Legally, legally.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: [Laughter]<\/p>\n
Yes, as well as a new platform.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Can you tell we don\u2019t rehearse anything here, folks? We just go for it, you know, whatever. And we say dumb things.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: And then what\u2019s the fourth thing?\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Oh, yeah. The platform! The platform is the thing too. That\u2019s the big thing to make it, like you\u2019re saying, to make everything just neater and nicer, but also, we have the Pastors for Normal People, which is something that just, Jared, why don\u2019t you tell a little about that? That\u2019s a really great thing that we\u2019ve started doing.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Yeah, helping just to resource pastors, you know, the most we think about how do we help bring the biblical scholarship to everyday people, what better way than to resource pastors who are with people in their congregations every week who are going through challenges and how do we give them support and give them resources. So, those are the four things we\u2019re planning to do with this.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Pete: Yeah, absolutely. So, folks, again, thanks so much for all your support, it means a lot to us.\u00a0<\/p>\n
Jared: Excellent.\u00a0<\/p>\n
[Music begins, then fades as Pete begins speaking]<\/p>\n
Pete: Hey, everybody, welcome to our podcast today and our episode is \u201cHow Grace Saves Us\u201d and our guest is none other than Kirsten Powers and she is a best-selling author. A lot of you probably know her. She is a CNN Senior Political Analyst and she just came out with a book called Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts<\/em>. That\u2019s pretty irrelevant, don\u2019t you think, Jared?<\/p>\n Jared: Uh, yeah. I don\u2019t know what possessed her to write a book like this.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah, really. Just write a book about martians.<\/p>\n Jared: So unrelatable.<\/p>\n Pete: I know, whatever.<\/p>\n Jared: No, I thought we got into some great stuff. I really appreciated toward the end, where we talk about our own trauma and our own baggage and how doing some of this inner work helps us because I do think, sometimes we use things like social media as a scapegoat. Sure, social media, not great for polarization, but it really just amplifies what\u2019s going on inside of us in a lot of ways.<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah, we\u2019re making it polarized.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Right.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Right, right.<\/p>\n Jared: Right. It\u2019s just a tool, and we\u2019re just maybe using it badly.<\/p>\n Pete: I appreciate Kirsten, you know, bringing her own life. She\u2019s thought about this a lot. She\u2019s experienced things. And she\u2019s really thinking, \u201cHow do I want to live in this climate?\u201d That\u2019s really what it comes down to and I\u2019m like, yeah, you\u2019ve got something going on here. I think this is worth listening to.<\/p>\n Jared: All right, well, let\u2019s jump in.<\/p>\n [Music begins]<\/p>\n Kirsten: We all have our different things that we could do, if we actually really want to change the world, that don\u2019t involve demonizing other people. Holding someone accountable is not a lack of grace, saying something that\u2019s true is not a lack of grace, you\u2019re getting into the area of a lack of grace, when you\u2019re now judging, labeling, demonizing. If you don\u2019t like cancel culture, then start dealing with the things that people have been complaining about literally since forever.<\/p>\n [Music ends]<\/p>\n Pete: What led you to write the book? Sorry about that question.<\/p>\n Kirsten: I think what made me write the book is interesting, because I think it\u2019s what sort of plagues many of us, which is, I sort of hit a wall with the rage and the fury and the contempt and all the things that are happening.<\/p>\n Pete: Rage, what rage?<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, I\u2019m sure you don\u2019t have that problem.<\/p>\n [Laughter]<\/p>\n Pete: I didn\u2019t sleep for three months during the election last time. That was just horrible.<\/p>\n 4:54<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, it just, it became untenable for me and I really, I hit a wall and I just realized I can\u2019t keep living like this. And my behavior and just the thoughts and the sort of soundtrack of doom in my head was not in any way aligned with my beliefs.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Hmm.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: So, the idea that I should love my neighbor or even love my enemies, right? I was so far away from that I couldn\u2019t even get to a place where I even wanted to do that. It wasn\u2019t even like, I believe that and I\u2019m going to try to do that. I just was like, I just I\u2019m not even sure I even believe that anymore. I can\u2019t, there\u2019s no way. And so, I just realized that something was really wrong. And I pulled back from social media a little bit, I took some time to reflect. And what I came back to and I ended up writing a column, I write for USA Today, I ended up writing a column about this just about how toxic our public discourse is, but also looking at how I was participating in that, and mostly online. And it was pretty shame inducing, honestly, when I looked at it, because I didn\u2019t really feel, again, aligned with who I feel I am and who I think a lot of people would say, \u201cOh, well, you\u2019re, you\u2019re the voice of reason. You\u2019re so reasonable.\u201d And that\u2019s true, I am often very reasonable and also what I realized is I could also be very toxic.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Those aren\u2019t mutually exclusive.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, yeah. And so, I had to- in a way that I don\u2019t think I was before, necessarily, 2016.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, I had an intuition that what we needed was grace. But until I really started writing this book, I don\u2019t think I really even understood what I was saying. I think I was thinking about it almost in a kind of spiritual bypassing kind of way, right? Like grace is going to solve this problem. And it wasn\u2019t really until I got into the book and really had to delve deep into this, that I realized that yes, I think that is what we need, but I actually completely misunderstood what grace was. And it ended up being so much more than what I had even thought it was in the first place. So, I think that where I got to was where a lot of people have gotten to, and I think a lot of people were thinking, \u201cOh, it\u2019s going to be different after the election,\u201d but of course, spoiler alert, it\u2019s not. So, it\u2019s like, if anything, it feels like it\u2019s getting worse.<\/p>\n Jared: Well, maybe back up, because I think that\u2019s a really good place to start is that the idea of grace maybe wasn\u2019t what you thought it was and I don\u2019t want to put you on the spot because you wrote a whole book on it. So, it may not be easy to really define, but how would you now, kind of gone through all this, how would you define grace?<\/p>\n Kirsten: The way I define grace, I use the Christian paradigm of unmerited favor. But usually, when Christians talk about grace, they\u2019re talking about grace from God, so unmerited favor from God. But if we apply that to each other, then it\u2019s basically looking at other people and seeing the humanity in them if you\u2019re a believer, maybe seeing the divinity in them. No matter what they have done, or said, or believe, or who they voted for and being able to really allow them to not be you without being demonized. And so, I think that, it creates a kind of space, I think, between us and people who are upsetting us, and we\u2019re and so it\u2019s something that you give to other people, not because of anything they\u2019ve done to deserve it, right? It\u2019s you just have grace for people because they\u2019re people, right? They\u2019re human beings, complicated human beings that are more than the sum of the thing that they\u2019re doing that\u2019s maybe really, really bad, right? It may legitimately be really bad. It may just be something that you have exaggerated into being really bad.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Okay, so let\u2019s talk about this concept you use quite a bit, which is non-dualistic thinking, because it seems to be foundational to how you think about grace. So, what do you mean by non-dualism? And then how does it factor into this conversation about grace?<\/p>\n Kirsten: You\u2019re right, it is very foundational and it was a real turning point for me. And I think that had I not encountered that idea, which is basically everything is not black and white, everything is not either\/or, there are gray areas. There, you know, it doesn\u2019t have to be this all or nothing thinking, which I was particularly inclined to, but I think in our culture, it is very much the way that we\u2019re trained to think. And had I not encountered that, and I encountered it through the teachings of Richard Rohr.<\/p>\n 9:55<\/p>\n And I, I don\u2019t even know that I would have been able to come up with the idea of grace being a solution. I think that was the thing that just gave me just enough space to step back and say, \u201cMaybe I\u2019m not seeing things totally clearly here. Or maybe there aren\u2019t- maybe there are other ways to think about things that are different than the way that I think about them. Maybe everybody\u2019s not so evil.\u201d Right? It\u2019s possible that somebody could think something that I don\u2019t think and not be evil. I was very locked into that really hyper-binary thinking, and so, when I discovered Richard Rohr and then I also at the same time met James Martin, who\u2019s, some people might know, who\u2019s a Jesuit priest, and he became my spiritual director. And he also really was encouraging me to embrace mystery and embrace that kind of gray area and the kind of not knowing and that was really new for me and I think that just helped me kind of turn a corner and start moving in the direction of being open to the idea of grace.<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, it reminds me of- I talk about this sometimes, where if the truth is obvious, if it is very obvious, which is like that black and white thinking, we can fall prey to what I call ignorant versus evil logic, right? So, if the truth is obvious and we disagree, there\u2019s really only two options: either you\u2019re that dumb, like you\u2019re ignorant, or you\u2019re that evil, meaning you\u2019re purposely skewing what\u2019s obvious for your own nefarious purposes. And so, without the grayness of breaking down the binary of the non-dualism of maybe there\u2019s a spectrum of things, maybe this stuff that we\u2019re talking about is really complicated and reasonable people can disagree about really complicated stuff. I think without that, we don\u2019t really have a lot of options. People who disagree are either really stupid or really bad. And so, it sounds like you this non-dualism-<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah. Isn\u2019t that what most people think?<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah. Right!<\/p>\n Kirsten: That\u2019s the thing. I mean, I cite, you know, surveys and studies and all sorts of things in the book where when they ask people what they think of people, you know, ask a Republican what they think of Democrats and ask Democrats what they think of Republicans- they think they\u2019re subhuman.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: At this point, right? Where they actually wished- they think the country better off if large-<\/p>\n Pete: Yes, if they weren\u2019t there.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, if they died, basically. If large numbers died of the opposing party. So, it really, we have dehumanized people and I think that is obviously made worse by the fact that we\u2019ve really sorted ourselves into these bubbles where we don\u2019t really encounter people or even ideas really, that are that different than us, except when they\u2019re given to us by people who think like us and then it\u2019s always the caricature of what other people think. Right? So, it\u2019s like, you\u2019re getting all your information about Republicans from some liberal on Twitter. And you\u2019re getting all your information about Democrats from Fox News.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Right.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: So, it\u2019s like, you\u2019re not really- that\u2019s not really how you learn about what people think. And the studies show, social science shows that when people can even think of one person that they know, it\u2019s not even a friend, just somebody that they know, who they like. You know, if they can just think about one person, they will immediately depolarize- a person who thinks differently than they do and belongs to the other party. And so, it just takes that one person where they can take it out of the abstract, because it\u2019s very easy to hate abstract people and take it to a real person. And then they\u2019ll say, \u201cOh, yeah, okay. Yeah, I could see how, yeah, I don\u2019t agree with them. But I can see that they\u2019re actually not, you know, evil.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete: You can\u2019t show grace to a person who\u2019s dehumanized. You know, I mean, you have to really, I mean, I think that\u2019s a great point, you have to really make them into people, make them just recognize what they are right. Of course, social media doesn\u2019t help all this. But you know, the abstractions and the and the distance we have from each other, but it\u2019s about really, I guess, I mean, the way I would put it from what I\u2019m hearing you say, is just remembering that just as issues are not black and white dualistic, people aren\u2019t either. And even if they come across a certain way, they have a story. They have a history and there are things going on. And people have fears and people have hopes and dreams and then getting to that, and I think just even having conversations with people that you disagree with strongly- and they know you do- that\u2019s a sign of grace, right there I think. That can go a long way.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah. And then, like I said, it\u2019s allowing people to not be you and not be turned into a monster.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Right.<\/p>\n 14:58<\/p>\n Kirsten: Because that\u2019s basically what I was doing. It\u2019s like, \u201cYou think what?\u201d<\/p>\n Now, I do want to say that sometimes binary thinking is helpful, because there are some things that are clear. So, to me, it is clear, and I don\u2019t actually know a lot of people that would disagree with what I\u2019m about to say, that racism is wrong. Right? So, we can recognize that that\u2019s wrong, what we can\u2019t know is what a person believes because they voted for Donald Trump. Do you see what I\u2019m saying? It\u2019s like, we make all of these assumptions about people or a person does something that\u2019s misogynist, for example, then they are a misogynist versus a person who, like you said, has a story, has all sorts of good qualities that we don\u2019t know about and is more than this one moment in their life. Now, that doesn\u2019t mean the person is not responsible for what they did.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, some people also I think, misunderstand grace to think that it just means letting people get away with everything and it\u2019s often invoked that way by people to say basically like to marginalize people, well just have grace for the people who are saying the racist things, just have grace for the person who sexually harassed you. That\u2019s not- that\u2019s weaponizing grace. And grace does not mean that people aren\u2019t held accountable, it just means that they\u2019re held accountable with humanity. So, and they\u2019re held accountable, hopefully, with the idea of some sort of restoration with, you know, hopefully, they will repent and they could be welcomed back into wholeness, and there could be wholeness where that brokenness was created. But, as I talk about in the book, if you look at our criminal justice system, that is the opposite of what goes on there. So, it\u2019s not really that surprising that we also sort of reenact this kind of thinking in our other relationships, in our other interactions, that we have an entire system in our country that is just so vengeful and inhumane and I think that that\u2019s kind of a mentality that we have just accepted the kind of brutality, right, of how we treat each other. And in this book, I\u2019m trying to get people to step back and say \u2013 we don\u2019t have to treat each other this way. We also don\u2019t have to be unified and agreeing on everything, I\u2019m realistic about that. You know, I don\u2019t think that-<\/p>\n Pete: Of course.<\/p>\n Kirsten: I think where both sides are, I mean, I don\u2019t see unity. Even though, you know, the President\u2019s now calling for that. But I do see a situation where we could have grace and we could try to, you know, try to turn it down a little bit and step back from dehumanization and demonization of people who are different than us.<\/p>\n Pete: So let me ask, you mentioned before, you know, a statement that, you know, most people would certainly agree with that racism is wrong, but there are some who would probably say I disagree with that, but they just have different definitions of racism, and they may actually be racist, and have not a problem with it.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Well, see, because I always find it interesting that racists always insist they\u2019re not racist.<\/p>\n Pete: Right, exactly. Because it\u2019s just the natural order of things. I\u2019m not doing anything wrong.<\/p>\n Kirsten: But they\u2019re admitting that racism is wrong. You see what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah, no, I agree with you.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, very few people would just say like, \u201cRacism is great. Let\u2019s all be racist.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Like, it\u2019s yeah, it\u2019s like, I think most people would be like, \u201cNo, racism is wrong. And I\u2019m not racist,\u201d even if they\u2019re doing something \u2013<\/p>\n Pete: How would you show- I\u2019m assuming, just from what you\u2019re saying, that grace can be shown to those people and probably should be, or am I misreading you here? Again, grace doesn\u2019t mean you\u2019re fine, whatever, it doesn\u2019t matter. It just means how you talk to them, and maybe trying to find out their story. Maybe there\u2019s something going on in there. There\u2019s a way to talk to them that can at least crack open the doors to help them see something from a different angle.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yes, though, I don\u2019t think- and I think we may have even talked about this last time I was on, I don\u2019t think that you should just befriend people to try to change them. So, you know, seeing somebody as your little ministry or your little like, you\u2019re gonna save them. I think if you\u2019re going to enter into any kind of relationship-\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Well, that\u2019s why you\u2019re on our podcast.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah.<\/p>\n Pete: I think I actually made that joke last time.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah.<\/p>\n Pete: Let\u2019s move on from this. I have four jokes I recycle.<\/p>\n Kirsten: So, I would say that, I think that it\u2019s basically seeing the whole person and not like reducing them to this one thing, but also being very clear about what\u2019s wrong and naming that. So, you can name what some- you can name something that\u2019s wrong without judging somebody. And so, I talk a lot about that in the book. I think grace helps us to be non-judgmental.\u00a0<\/p>\n 19:52<\/p>\n So, it\u2019s you can make a judgement, which is like discernment, versus being judgmental, where you immediately start down the road of what a monster this person is and they\u2019re so horrible. And the next thing you know, you\u2019re like, marinating in this person\u2019s stuff.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Right? And you\u2019re not helping anybody. You\u2019re not making anything better. And I mean, a lot of what I talk about in the book isn\u2019t really about changing other people. It\u2019s more about how can you not absorb things that really don\u2019t belong to you, right? So, if you are concerned about somebody who\u2019s done something misogynist, you can say something to them. But there\u2019s also a lot of causes you could volunteer for, there\u2019s people you could give money to. If you\u2019re me, you could write a column. We all have our different things that we could do if we actually really want to change the world that don\u2019t involve demonizing other people. So, I think that we can name that somebody has done something and say that this is a problem. In an ideal world, if you know them, I talked about calling people in first, right? You could, instead of humiliating them on Twitter, try to talk to them and say, \u201cHey, you know, you said this thing, did you realize that it was offensive?\u201d And maybe they\u2019re going to say, \u201cOh, my gosh, I had no idea I\u2019m going to apologize.\u201d Give people an opportunity to try to do better. And then sometimes people get called in and they get called in, they get called in and they just don\u2019t listen and they just keep doing the things. And then, ultimately, they get caught up in something and they lose their job. Right? Like, this happens. And, you know, in that case, sometimes I don\u2019t like it when people lose their jobs, but sometimes people \u2013 that is the accountability, that is the consequence of their actions, right? And so, holding someone accountable is not a lack of grace. Saying something that\u2019s true is not a lack of grace, you\u2019re getting into the area of a lack of grace, when you\u2019re now judging, labeling, demonizing and all of these other things. Does that make sense?<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, I really appreciate the way you said it earlier that we don\u2019t want to reduce people to their poor behavior, to that one thing. And yet, we also- that doesn\u2019t mean we can\u2019t name it and say this isn\u2019t okay. It\u2019s that reduction and reducing people to demonizing that is the challenge.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Well, it\u2019s also just recognizing that people are doing the best that they can with what they have. And that even if it doesn\u2019t seem very good to you, and maybe it legitimately isn\u2019t very good, that you know, having you know, having some grace for them, also showing a little humility about the fact that probably you\u2019ve done some things that are pretty messed up in your life, even though everybody is always the one who\u2019s never done anything. You know, people have shown you a lot of grace and treat that person the way you would like to be treated if you screwed up.<\/p>\n Jared: Can we talk about that a little more? Because I think, in some ways, not that we\u2019re purposely dancing around this, but I think it\u2019s worth talking about cancel culture and this idea of, you know, forgiveness and how to balance forgiveness and accountability. So, can you speak specifically to that, like, what is grace? You talked about restoration and so, like, specifically, when people are called out for, hey, we found these 10 racist tweets that you put up, you know, 12 years ago? What do you, in kind of the context of what you\u2019re talking about in this grace, what might be a better response? Or is the response that often happens, which we call it up, there\u2019s this a lot of outrage, and then the person, you know, loses their job, is that accountability? Is that a lack of grace? How do we kind of navigate this in real world scenarios here?<\/p>\n Kirsten: Well, I mean, it\u2019s a very complicated issue, I think, and unfortunately, everything gets oversimplified in our culture. And so, I don\u2019t think any of these two cases are the same, even though they all get treated as being exactly the same. And so, you know, ideally, there would be some sort of multi-layered analysis, right? Just basic things in terms of is this the first time a person has done this? Did it happen 10 years ago or did it happen last week? How old were they when that happened? Were they a teenager or were they, you know, why are we holding somebody who\u2019s 26 years old, accountable for something they tweeted when they were 16? Right? We should be able to look at these different things. Are they sorry? Are they a different person? Do they still even believe it? Right? That\u2019s another thing, I\u2019m always- no one\u2019s asking this person like you did this is do you really believe this? And they might say, \u201cNo, I think that\u2019s stupid. I can\u2019t believe that I said that and I\u2019m so sorry that I said that.\u201d But that\u2019s not really the way we approach things. It\u2019s like this person did this 10 years ago, so therefore, this is who the person is. Which of course, I\u2019m not even the same person I was two years ago, let alone ten years ago. So, I think that it oversimplifies things.\u00a0<\/p>\n 24:55<\/p>\n At the same time, I think that the reason, first of all, cancel culture, I wish we could just retire the phrase, because it actually doesn\u2019t mean anything. It means different things to everybody. And it grew out of cancellation, which was a term that was used in a very different way and that was sort of co-opted by elites online and then it turned into this thing. And then conservatives started calling it cancel culture, it seems, with the intention of making it so that anytime anybody confronted racism, sexism, homophobia, they would be accused of canceling people. Right?<\/p>\n Jared: Right.<\/p>\n Kirsten: So, it\u2019s a tactic, actually. And it\u2019s not- it\u2019s been so disconnected from what its original purpose was, and then is now used to try to silence like black activists. I mean, it\u2019s very twisted. And so, I think, you know, at the same time, I think that it can be very problematic when accountability, we call something accountability, but it\u2019s actually annihilation. Sometimes people will say, well, the person is just being held accountable. It\u2019s like, really? Because it looks like their whole life has been completely ruined. That doesn\u2019t really like that doesn\u2019t strike me as accountability. Accountability is getting suspended for your first time offense, right? It\u2019s not losing your job, your reputation, your health insurance, probably any chances of being employed again.<\/p>\n Pete: It\u2019s very retributive.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, it really is. And so, you know, sometimes somebody does something that deserves that. But that\u2019s not an everyday occurrence. So, it\u2019s like, what, what would accountability look like? I think that you do have to, in different circumstances, listen to the people who are harmed. So, I would be very careful about stepping into a situation where something racist happen and saying, \u201cHey, I think this is what\u2019s supposed to happen.\u201d I would want to hear from people who were part of the community that was harmed, you know, what did they think? If something happens with sexual harassment or sexual assault, you know, I think for men coming in and then saying, \u201cLet\u2019s just have grace for him, you know, in this situation for harassing this woman at work.\u201d It\u2019s like, well, are you really in a position to even talk about that? Do you even understand what it\u2019s like, right? Like, I think there, I think we do need to look to the people who\u2019ve actually experienced it, because sometimes we\u2019ll be very quick to say something\u2019s not that big of a deal because it doesn\u2019t affect us. So, we don\u2019t really understand the impact of it.\u00a0<\/p>\n The thing I also say in the book, which I think some people are going to have a hard time with, is that if you don\u2019t like cancel culture, then start dealing with the things that people have been complaining about literally since forever. Right? Like generation after generation after generation, people have been complaining about racism, people have been complaining about sexual harassment, and really haven\u2019t been listened to. And we\u2019ve sort of drove people to the edge and we now have a situation where, again, someone will come out, a white person will say the N word and they\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh, I didn\u2019t know.\u201d And when I talk to my black friends about it, they\u2019re like, how can you not know that? How could you be alive in this country and not know that, right? So, to them, it just feels like they\u2019re not vengeful, they\u2019re not looking to destroy anybody\u2019s life. They\u2019re just like, when are you going to see us?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Mmm.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: You know, when are you actually going to listen to what we\u2019re saying? And so, when is it? It\u2019s when people\u2019s jobs are on the line? Right? It\u2019s when- it isn\u2019t until people are afraid of having their reputations destroyed and their jobs are on a line that people start listening and start paying attention. And now, you know, everybody\u2019s having the trainings, diversity\/inclusion trainings, and all these things. But would any of that have happened had it not been for so called cancel culture? I don\u2019t think so.<\/p>\n Jared: Right. It\u2019s telling that what gets the airtime and the red flags is cancel culture, but there wasn\u2019t a lot of racism culture-<\/p>\n Kirsten: Exactly.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Or like sexism culture talked about over the last twenty or thirty years.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Well, right. And as soon as you know, #MeToo happened, I mean, we were five minutes into #MeToo, and people are coming up, \u201cThis has gotten out of hand.\u201d You know? And it\u2019s like, really? \u201cAll these men are losing their jobs.\u201d Like really?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Right.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Like, this is what\u2019s out of hand? Because it feels like it was the sexual harassment that was out of hand. You know, and so it\u2019s like for my entire life, right? And it\u2019s like, so, yeah, it\u2019s very problematic that, you know, where you have conservatives also coming out and talking about like Pepe LePew being canceled-<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah.<\/p>\n 29:51<\/p>\n Kirsten: But have never complained about police brutality, you know? Have never complained about racism against black people at any point, you know? And it\u2019s like, in fact, if they talk about racism, it\u2019s this like, alleged racism against white people. So, you start to look at it, you\u2019re like, wait, we\u2019re just getting like, taken totally off course here. And we\u2019re not talking about why sometimes people, I guess some people would say, they overreact. I don\u2019t really know that you could overreact to like hundreds of years of racism. But they\u2019ll say, well, they\u2019re, you know, they\u2019re not, you know, they tone police them, they\u2019re not saying it the right way. Of course, they\u2019re never protesting in the right way. They\u2019re never at the right place, which is apparently a place where no one will ever see it. And so, that people would finally maybe just get so fed up, that they would just start saying, like, \u201cYeah, you should lose your job. I don\u2019t care.\u201d Right?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Isn\u2019t that just normal behavior?<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, it\u2019s like every action kind of has the equal and opposite reaction. It\u2019s sort of like, if you\u2019re looking at this reaction, maybe it\u2019s time to look at the action and see what caused it.<\/p>\n Pete: Right.<\/p>\n Kirsten: And recognize how much grace you\u2019ve gotten.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Mm hmm, right.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Because this country wouldn\u2019t function if there hadn\u2019t been, marginalized people hadn\u2019t been giving people grace, right? It\u2019s just the things that have happened in this country and the way people have been treated and the way they\u2019ve been ignored. The only way that you could even live in this country would have to be because you\u2019re offering grace to the people who are causing the harm, right? And so, to be thankful for that and notice like how much grace you\u2019ve gotten and stop asking other people to give more grace, because that\u2019s kind of the dynamic. It\u2019s why can\u2019t people have more grace when this person said the n-word at work or whatever, and it\u2019s like, you have- there hasn\u2019t been enough grace? Like, I just feel like there\u2019s been so much grace.<\/p>\n Jared: As we\u2019ve been talking about this, you know, I\u2019ve been putting the pieces together on maybe why, you know, non-dualistic thinking is so foundational to this, because almost like the phrase that comes to mind is almost like structural grace, like the idea to slow down and say, maybe there\u2019s filters or variables that we need to look at in terms of what you were talking about. There are all these criteria of, you know, how long ago did they say it? Do they still believe it? How old were they? Like those kinds of things kind of build in grace. It\u2019s almost- I almost think of like, the ideals that our justice system was founded on, not that it always happens, but it\u2019s like, innocent until proven guilty. Like there\u2019s some- that\u2019s kind of a grace-based statement. And there\u2019s these structures that maybe could be put in place and that, for me, is the non-dualism. It\u2019s not either they should be, you know, or shouldn\u2019t be. It\u2019s slow down; there\u2019s these other seven questions we might need to ask first, before we figure out what the right thing to do is.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah. And I think the thing that you run into is that when you start saying that, so- we\u2019ll just use racism as an example. And white people start saying that when something racist has happened, then I think what, like my black friends were saying to me, when I was discussing all these topics with them, it\u2019s like, well where\u2019s the grace for the black boys, and we\u2019re getting kicked out of school. Right? It\u2019s like, there\u2019s no grace and nobody cares. And so the same people who have never said a word about the well-documented, unequal treatment of black children in schools literally having their lives canceled, right? Like taken off track by being expelled for things that white students aren\u2019t getting expelled for, you know, and punished much more harshly than white students are getting punished, the same people who never say a word about that are now talking about how this person who did something racist needs grace. Do you see what I\u2019m saying?\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Yeah.<\/p>\n Kirsten: And so I think if you put yourself in the other person\u2019s shoes, it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, wait. So, now I\u2019m supposed to have grace for the person who\u2019s doing the racist things? But like, nobody cares about the fact that my son, if he does something at school will get no grace.\u201d Not like the assumption, he\u2019ll get like- the white kid will get grace for it, but the black kid won\u2019t. And so, it\u2019s, you know, so then at that point, someone usually says, \u201cYes, but the solution is that we just we want to treat white kids and black kids exactly the same way.\u201d So, it\u2019s we don\u2019t want to like harm the white person because we\u2019re harming the black person, and I agree with that. The problem is, I just feel like, and I say in the book, I am guilty of this, it\u2019s a talking point. It\u2019s something that I used to say. And so, I really stopped and thought about it. And I was like, well, I say this, but what are we doing to make it so? Right? It\u2019s like a nice philosophy.\u00a0<\/p>\n 34:50<\/p>\n And it\u2019s true, we want- the solution isn\u2019t that we want to harm other people, but are we doing anything to stop harming the black kids? Like, are we actively trying to change that?\u00a0<\/p>\n So, I think we have to look at why these things are happening. And, you know, I really try to do that now when I\u2019m with anybody, honestly, of any issue. I tend now, when I look at people, whereas I used to be very judgmental, I tend now to have a lot more empathy. You know, and I don\u2019t get hung up on how people are communicating things or, you know, if they\u2019re saying it the right way. I\u2019m just really interested to hear what they\u2019re saying. And, you know, even if it\u2019s something that I don\u2019t necessarily identify with, like what is the pain that\u2019s underneath what they\u2019re doing and having more empathy for people. And so, and I feel like this whole \u201ccancel culture\u201d thing really takes us off track from that, that takes us off track of stopping and saying, \u201cWhy is this happening?\u201d<\/p>\n Jared: And that seems like maybe a good segue into talking about- because cancel culture, in a lot of ways, at least as far as I\u2019ve experienced it, maybe that\u2019s just because of my own bias here, is on social media. And I just think there\u2019s a lot of conversation around social media, when it comes to the polarization conversation and how we disagree with one another, and how maybe we don\u2019t have enough grace for each other. So, do you have ideas as you\u2019ve been thinking about this and writing about this, like how we can better handle ourselves with social media? You know, even if it\u2019s- and Pete, you could speak into this because you are kind of in this conversation over the last year with social media and how it impacts us and how it impacts our brains and there\u2019s a whole thing we could talk about, but particularly around this topic of how we get along or don\u2019t get along or show grace or don\u2019t show grace. You know, how do we handle ourselves with social media? What\u2019s the impact?<\/p>\n Kirsten: The impact is huge. And I don\u2019t think that- I think it\u2019s very difficult to spend a lot of time on social media and have grace for people. It\u2019s because it\u2019s designed to activate you and enrich you. And so, it\u2019s designed to actually interact with your brain in a way, knowing all of the things that your brain will do, to seek out information that confirms what you already believe, to make really quick binary, you know, judgments, which was super helpful when much more primitive times, not helpful at all now. It\u2019s not helpful when it comes to trying to discern complicated issues. And then what happens is you see a tweet, you make a snap judgment about something, you see other people doing it, the whole sort of, you know, mob mentality takes over. And even though you\u2019re not in an actual physical mob, a lot of the same dynamics start to play out. And so, you also are often seeing people who are not really necessarily at their best and they\u2019re acting in a very toxic manner, and I don\u2019t know about other people, for me, that can be very triggering. And so, the first thing I did was I got off of social media. And I mean, completely off. And I didn\u2019t get on social media for probably a month. And at that point, when I got back on, I was like, this really messed up and I found it kind of repulsive.<\/p>\n Pete: Cal Newport\u2019s book, Digital Minimalism<\/em>, that\u2019s what he says. He says, \u201cIf you want to break it, break the cycle, get off for one month,\u201d I think he says one month or six weeks, then when you come back, it\u2019s like, what was I doing here? You know, it\u2019s like, and I\u2019ve tried, I haven\u2019t quite had the guts to do that, because social media is a little bit more of what we do. But like, I might not check it for three days. And then I\u2019m on it for like 10 minutes and then I\u2019m done. You know, but the reason to bring that up is because, you know, if we want to show grace to other people, we might have to train ourselves to avoid those triggering times and not get drawn into the social media machinery, which really does try to agitate us and it rewards us for being agitated.<\/p>\n Kirsten: It does. And I think also, though, we have to look at- I mean, in the book I talk a lot about coming to terms with some of my emotional issues and dealing with some of my past traumas, which also really drove me further into binary thinking, which is pretty typical people who\u2019ve been traumatized. So, I think that you have to also do that work on yourself. So, it\u2019s a lot harder now. It would take a lot more time on social media to activate me or to pull me in because my boundaries are so strong. So, I don\u2019t, because I don\u2019t judge, I mean, I can\u2019t say I never judge people, of course, it happens. But before, all I did was judge people. So it\u2019s like, I just was constantly judging and labeling.\u00a0<\/p>\n 39:59<\/p>\n And whereas now when I see something, it\u2019ll register like, that\u2019s no. Right? And I just move on. And that\u2019s it. I don\u2019t think about it again. I don\u2019t have that kind of- I haven\u2019t now intertwined myself with this person. Whereas in the past, I would get so wrapped up in this person, I\u2019d be like telling my fianc\u00e9 about it. I\u2019d be thinking about it, right? It\u2019s like you, you take it all on, whereas now I\u2019m really just kind of looking at it like, going no, and I move on to the next thing. And I don\u2019t, I just don\u2019t get involved. And I just don\u2019t get in Twitter fights.<\/p>\n Pete: Yes, amen.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: I don\u2019t call people out. I don\u2019t, whatever, I just don\u2019t do it. And so, if I\u2019m going to tweet something, I tweet it. Right? It\u2019s like, I\u2019m not going to get into something with somebody.<\/p>\n Pete: Every time I call somebody out, I regret it like ten minutes later. And then I\u2019ve got several days of crap I have to deal with. And yeah, you know, the more you become aware, I mean, I really like what you\u2019re saying here about-<\/p>\n Jared: If you\u2019re going to talk about me, Pete, you just say it to my face. You don\u2019t have to say it passively, okay?<\/p>\n Pete: Can I say it anonymously online? But I think, you know, knowing- I guess, I mean, if I\u2019m hearing you right, working through trauma has helped you become more gracious.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: 1,000%<\/p>\n Pete: Is that right?\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Oh, yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Okay. And could you flesh that out a little bit? Because a lot of people experience trauma.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yes.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete: Right? And we don\u2019t always realize how much we\u2019re acting out of the trauma that we\u2019ve experienced either big issues or the slow boil over many, many years. So, I think, talk about that a little bit, because I think that\u2019s going to be really relevant to a lot of people listening.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, well, for me, it really was- do we do the Enneagram here?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Sure, yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Enneagram people?\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete and Jared: Yeah.<\/p>\n Kirsten: So, the Enneagram-<\/p>\n Pete: That satanic thing? Okay, got it.<\/p>\n Jared: We got a pentagram. We\u2019re talking about the pentagram now?<\/p>\n Kirsten: That\u2019s it. That\u2019s it. So, the around the time I saw Richard Rohr, of course wrote a book on the Enneagram, so I think that\u2019s when I first was really introduced to it. I\u2019d heard about it, but I always thought it was kind of nutty. And then I started to look into it a little bit. Long story short, turns out I\u2019m in Enneagram Eight, which is the Challenger.<\/p>\n Pete: Oh gosh! That\u2019s the worst one.<\/p>\n Jared: That\u2019s me. Pete, come on. That\u2019s me too.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Oh, you are?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Yup.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: And so, Enneagram 8\u2019s and 1\u2019s, I also had I thought it was a 1, turns out I\u2019m an 8, are very prone to binary thinking, and so, even more than the average person. And it\u2019s what I did in response to my trauma, right? To make myself feel safe.<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, when you control. Binary thinking helps you feel in control.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Exactly. And so I would, I would make these really quick decisions. I always thought I was right about everything and then I would insist other people had to agree with me. That was my dynamic, that\u2019s very unhealthy eight behavior. And so, once I understood the Enneagram, was basically saying we create these personalities in response to our trauma, then I was able to really work on that with my therapist, and really start unpacking that, and even practicing things like how to say something, how to not be judgmental, right? So, I would say something and she said, \u201cThat\u2019s a little judgmental.\u201d And I\u2019d say, \u201cBut it\u2019s true.\u201d And she\u2019s like, \u201cWell, it might be, but that doesn\u2019t change the fact that it\u2019s judgmental.\u201d Then she\u2019s like, \u201cWanting to try saying it again?\u201d And so, I\u2019d say it again, she\u2019d be like, \u201cStill judgmental.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n And so, I actually would start, you know, learning, like, what does that mean? And how can I just be discerning? And so, that was helpful to me, and then actually going back through and really working through a lot of these traumatic issues. And then I went to this place called Onsite in Tennessee. And that was a major turning point for me, where I dealt with some traumas that actually had happened in my adult life. And then I had just a huge, huge turning point where I really felt my capacity for grace, just expand-<\/p>\n Pete: Is that a trauma recovery place, Onsite?<\/p>\n Kirsten: Onsite is, like, I don\u2019t know how you describe it, they do all sorts of different things. They do have a trauma-I forget what you call it, like, I guess, a trauma recovery place. What I did is something called the Living Center program. And it\u2019s a seven-day program and it\u2019s in a group. And I had tons and tons of friends go there and they all said it changed their life. But I just always felt like I just don\u2019t want to spend seven days doing therapy. It sounds so horrible. And once I realized, though, that I knew that I had some trauma that needed to be dealt with. And I just sucked it up, and I went, and it really, it was night and day, I just can\u2019t even describe how different I was after I did it. And I really did process grief around my father dying and then my grandmother dying and then my stepfather died, it happened in very rapid succession, and I didn\u2019t really understand even till I wrote the book, when I was interviewing a therapist who actually does work at Onsite. And she was saying that if our, if our grief is not witnessed, we get stuck in it.\u00a0<\/p>\n And so, because I was in this group that was witnessing my grief and I was processing it with them, and they didn\u2019t have any of the baggage that like my family would have. Because often it\u2019s very hard for our families to help us with that, because they are having their own feelings about it. And so, I actually was able to really process this grief in a way that I never had. And after that I just didn\u2019t have that need to be so certain or so right about everything.\u00a0<\/p>\n And then it was done in conjunction with a lot of spiritual work as well. I mean, I have spiritual director, and we were spending a lot of time really on trying to, I guess, unlearn a lot of you know, my time in the White Evangelical Church was kind of a recipe for disaster considering my trauma, right? Like, I was already prone to be so binary that I just latched on to that and I probably took it too far in a way. You know, I think there are some people who go to those churches and that doesn\u2019t happen to them. They can kind of look at it and go, \u2018Well, this is okay, I\u2019ll do this and not that.\u201d Where I was like, \u201cI have to follow everything to the letter. And if I don\u2019t, then I\u2019m a bad person.\u201d Right? It just was very, very narrow binary thinking. And then I was able to move into a space of being totally comfortable with not knowing things with, yeah, just saying it\u2019s a mystery. I don\u2019t know. I just don\u2019t know. Yeah, and that\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n Pete: Join the club.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, it\u2019s funny. We just someone a few days ago, I was talking to at a church I was speaking at and they said, \u201cYeah, you know, I was like, taking, I used to take this so seriously, and I had to get it right. And then I started asking these questions, and I started coming to different conclusions, and I talked to my husband who\u2019s like, you know, doesn\u2019t take it all that seriously. And I started saying these things. And he\u2019s like, \u2018Yeah, I\u2019ve kind of always thought that.\u2019\u201d And she\u2019s like, \u201cYou, you are kidding me.\u201d And he\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, I just I thought everyone just kind of showed up and kind of, you know, you shrug off what you don\u2019t like and you just take what you do.\u201d And she\u2019s like, \u201cOh, my gosh.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete: You can do that?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: But no one told me. So, okay, as we wrap up here, I think I want to maybe ask this question in a way that we, it\u2019s a little different than how we normally ask it, because what you were just saying I think is so important for people to understand is that showing grace to others isn\u2019t always an external work. It\u2019s not just about these, it\u2019s not always about the other person. Oftentimes, it\u2019s about cleaning up our own house, like it\u2019s this inner work of figuring out, you know, the people who talk down to who can\u2019t stand up for their own belief without talking down to me, I realized, have some insecurities in themselves. There\u2019s something going on in them.\u00a0<\/p>\n And so, as we kind of wrap up, are there other things, just what you\u2019re talking about? So great. Could you- is there anything else that people could be doing for their own internal work that might actually help them have grace for other people, if they could kind of work through their own stuff?<\/p>\n Kirsten: Yeah, I mean, I think first of all, learning about boundaries is really important. And I have a whole chapter on that, but there are other places you can learn about boundaries. So that when you have the desire to kind of go there in terms of the judgment, the demonization to stop and just say, \u201cActually, I have a tool, and it\u2019s called boundaries.\u201d And I\u2019ll have to do that. But I also think it\u2019s really important for people to do whatever work they need to do, to be able to have grace for themselves. Because if you can\u2019t have grace for yourself, then you can\u2019t have grace for other people. And as awful as I really could be to other people, like, I was just as horrible to myself, right?\u00a0<\/p>\n I was, you know, I had that just monstrous inner critic that was just always on me, always, you know, never cutting me any slack, never none of those things. And so, really having to, you know, become more integrated. And deal with your traumas, so that you can start having grace for yourself, which will make it easier for you to have grace for other people. But I also really found doing this kind of look back, like I did it in a very structured way where I actually sat down and thought about, you know, where have I gone wrong? And then I had all the shame around it.\u00a0<\/p>\n And then I had to do this process with my therapist, where she\u2019s like, where\u2019s the grace for Kirsten? Right? Because I would be like, I can\u2019t believe I did that. I can\u2019t believe I said that, or I can\u2019t believe this or that. And I just couldn\u2019t let it go. Right? I couldn\u2019t even have grace for myself.\u00a0<\/p>\n 49:57<\/p>\n And so, once I got to the place where I was like, \u201cYou\u2019re right, I was doing the best I could. I was a mess. But I was doing the best I could.\u201d It\u2019s much easier to see that in other people, right? When- once you look back and you have some humility about where you\u2019ve gone wrong, then you won\u2019t be so quick to judge another person or refuse to give them grace for their mistakes because you just think what kind of person could possibly do that? It\u2019s like, well, you might not have done that. But you did something else. Right? Like we\u2019re all doing our own little messed up things. And so, I think that those, those things really help and you know, I am a big also, you know, if you have a spiritual life, identify if you have any binary inclinations and start trying to unlearn that a little bit. Start trying to lean into the idea of mystery and of not knowing and being okay with not knowing.<\/p>\n Jared: So practical and helpful. Really appreciate you coming on, Kirsten, and sharing some of your story which has to be vulnerable now knowing you\u2019re an 8 I\u2019m like, \u201cUgh, airing dirty laundry. No, thank you. Yuck. I\u2019ll just, I\u2019ll teach you.\u201d<\/p>\n Kirsten: It is pretty awful.<\/p>\n Jared: Yeah, geez. So, thank you so much for doing that. I know how hard that can be, but I think it will be helpful for a lot of people. I think it was helpful for Pete and I, as well, to be thinking about some of this stuff. So, thanks again for coming back on the podcast. It was great to have you again.<\/p>\n Kirsten: Thank you for having me. It was so much fun.<\/p>\n Pete: Thank you, Kirsten.<\/p>\n [Music begins]<\/p>\n Stephanie: You just made it through another entire episode of The Bible for Normal People. Well done to you, and well done to everyone who supports us by rating the podcast, leaving us a review, or telling others about our show. We are especially grateful for our Producer\u2019s Group who support us over on Patreon. They are the reason we are able to keep bringing podcasts and other content to you. If you would like to help support the podcast, head over to patreon.com\/thebiblefornormalpeople where for as little as $3\/month, you can receive bonus material, be a part of an online community, get course discounts, and much more. We couldn\u2019t do what we do without your support.<\/p>\n Dave: Our show is produced by Stephanie Speight; Audio Engineer, Dave Gerhart; Creative Director, Tessa Stultz; and Web Developer, Nick Striegel. For Pete, Jared, and the entire Bible for Normal People team \u2013 thanks for listening.<\/p>\n [Music ends]<\/p>\n [BEEP]<\/p>\n Pete: Welcome, everybody, to our podcasts and our episode today is \u201cHow Grace Saves Us,\u201d and our guest. I\u2019m going to start over again because I didn\u2019t say \u201csaves us\u201d correctly.<\/p>\n Jared: Mm hmm.\u00a0<\/p>\n [BEEP]<\/p>\n Kirsten: I\u2019m sorry. There\u2019s never any noise in my house, and now my dogs are just, like, going crazy.<\/p>\n Pete: [Laughter]<\/p>\n This is my life. Kirsten, by the way.<\/p>\n [BEEP]<\/p>\n Jared: So, we\u2019ll just jump right in. We might actually even use what we already recorded from that beginning part as part of the intro, I don\u2019t know. We\u2019ll leave that up to our-<\/p>\n Pete: It\u2019s fun.<\/p>\n Jared: Leave up to Dave, our audio engineer, who at the end of this last episode, put on our podcast episode me saying God d*&% it.<\/p>\n Pete: As an outtake?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared: As an outtake at the end. I\u2019m like, Dave, you\u2019re listening to this. Don\u2019t do that anymore. Geez.<\/p>\n Pete: Don\u2019t do that, Dave. I don\u2019t believe you.\u00a0<\/p>\n Kirsten: Come on, Dave.<\/p>\n Jared: We don\u2019t run a tight ship, apparently. All right. Okay.<\/p>\n [End of recorded material]<\/p>\n<\/div>\n