\n<\/p>\n
Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n You\u2019re listening to the Bible for Normal People, the only God-ordained podcast on the internet. I\u2019m Pete Enns.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n And I\u2019m Jared Byas.\u00a0<\/p>\n [Intro Music]<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Welcome, welcome, everyone to this episode of the podcast. Before we get started, we wanted to mention that our March class is coming up, and it\u2019s called \u201cWhy God Died: How atonement theories try to explain salvation.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, this is going to be taught by our friend, and nerd in residence, Jennifer Garcia Bashaw.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n She\u2019s fantastic. I feel like people\u2014you know, I\u2019m getting a little bit of a complex because\u2026<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, annoyed a little bit actually.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Exactly. I think people like her more than us. But that\u2019s okay. That\u2019s okay. That\u2019s what we want. As always, the class is pay-what-you-can until the class ends, and then you can download it after that if you sign up later for $25. But if you sign up and you can\u2019t make the live class, no worries, you can still do pay what you can, go ahead and sign up and then we\u2019ll send a link afterward that you can access later.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah. And you\u2019re asking, \u201cWhere do I sign up?\u201d Well go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com\/atonement. Simple as that.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n That\u2019s it. And our topic today, to get back to the task at hand, is biblicizing Esther, and our guest is Aaron Koller.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, Aaron is a professor of Near Eastern Studies at Yeshiva University, and he\u2019s currently a visiting fellow at Cambridge University, and he\u2019s written a number of books, one of which is \u201cEsther in Ancient Jewish Thought,\u201d which is immediately relevant for this episode.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Absolutely. So let\u2019s jump in and do a deep dive on Esther.<\/p>\n [Intro music]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n \u201cThere\u2019s nothing about fiction that makes it inferior to nonfiction. Fiction is sometimes the best books in the world, which actually can address questions in more profound ways than something that\u2019s constrained by facts. So if the Jews are really worried by some pretty deep issues about like, \u201cwhat does it mean to be a Jew in the diaspora at this point,\u201d it could be that a really probing fictional work can raise those issues in a much more profound and searching way.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n [Music continues]<\/p>\n [Ad break]<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, welcome to the podcast, Aaron, it\u2019s great to have you here.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Thank you so much for having me. It\u2019s great to be here.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, and for our listeners\u2014they won\u2019t know\u2014But it\u2019s 10pm where you are and you\u2019re recording in a library. So it feels a little, like, doubly mysterious. It\u2019s late at night, we\u2019re in a library, talking about Esther. So thanks for jumping in.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n A bit nerdy too. I mean, what five year old dreams of talking about Esther at 10 o\u2019clock at night in the library?<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughs]<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n You know, they wanna be an astronaut. No, we\u2019re stuck talking about Esther.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Exactly. Alright-\u00a0<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n What could happen if I got into the library after closing hours?<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, right? [Laughs]<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n This is what happens.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n There\u2019s a movie about that somewhere.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n This is a cautionary tale. So let\u2019s start with, we really want to dig into the story of Esther. But maybe it\u2019s helpful for folks who aren\u2019t familiar with the story to get a little overview of, you know, the setting, the plot, the main characters, what happens here?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Sure! Okay. The story is set in the Persian capital of Susa, and there are four main characters. Two of them are the Jewish characters, who sort of compete for the title of main character of the story. That\u2019s Esther\u2014who winds up being the Queen\u2014and her uncle, Mordecai\u2014who we don\u2019t know much about biographically in the story, he doesn\u2019t get a lot of backstory, but has a pretty big role to play in the narrative itself. And then there\u2019s the king\u2014who in the Hebrew texts is called Achashverosh or Ahasuerus. His English name, since this refers to a real person, is Xerxes and that\u2026 So those names actually match up if you go back to his original name. And then there\u2019s a Persian official named Haman. So those are the four big characters.<\/p>\n And there\u2019s essentially two plotlines in the story that sort of start together and then diverge and then come back together. And that\u2019s that Esther is the queen, she\u2019s secretly Jewish\u2014no one knows that she\u2019s Jewish\u2014and then, through an accident, Haman winds up really hating Mordecai the Jew\u2014for trivial reasons, like nothing interesting\u2014But because of that, he decides that he\u2019s actually going to massacre all of the Jews rather than just take his anger out on Mordecai himself. And so there\u2019s the sort of personal animosity between Haman and Mordecai, and then there\u2019s this genocidal plot hanging over the Jews for much of the story. Mordecai tries to get Esther to intervene and eventually she does, she afterall is the queen, so she goes to the king and throws herself in front of the king and tries to save the Jews. It\u2019s a little bit convoluted how she goes about it, but in the end, at a banquet, she has this great reveal where she says, \u201cMy life and the life of my entire people is in danger because of one man.\u201d And the king says, \u201cWho is the man who would dare hurt my queen?\u201d And she says, \u201cIt\u2019s that guy, Haman, your great adviser.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n Haman is pretty quickly executed, that doesn\u2019t actually solve the genocide problem\u2014The Jews are still slated to be killed a few months later\u2014But then, like, sort of to no one\u2019s surprise at that point, the Jews wind up defending themselves and actually killing anyone who tried to kill them. And that\u2019s basically where the story ends with everyone on the Jewish side of things, and on the sort of good Persian side\u2014which is the king and most of the Persians\u2014living happily ever after and Haman and his family, and other bad guys, dead.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So a good time was had by all.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, most. [Laughs]<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Except for Haman. Right? So\u2026<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, yeah. I mean, come on.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, Aaron, tell us that\u2014also, you know, another issue we like to think about here at the Bible for Normal People is just the setting of some of these books\u2014And I mean, I imagine if there\u2019s some disagreement in debate, let us know that too\u2014But when was the book written? And under what circumstances? What have scholars sort of come up with there?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right. So, I mean, you know, you and your audience, you know scholars, so of course, there\u2019s debate. Yeah, so scholars tend to get hung up on the question.\u2014Well, I said it was set in the Persian capital, and it refers to the real Persian king Xerxes, who, you know, we know a lot about from the Greek side, and he was, you know, he\u2019s a real person who did a lot of important things\u2014including invading Greece. But scholars tend to get hung up on the question of whether it was actually written in what\u2019s called, from the biblical perspective, the Persian period, or a little bit later in the Hellenistic period. With the big dividing line being is it before or after Alexander the Great comes through and conquers the entire region?<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Which was when?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Late 330s, as he comes farther and farther to the east. So, that\u2019s- People debate about this. I\u2019m not sure how much really depends on it. What\u2019s clear is that the author takes for granted that we really know about the Persian capital, like he describes the palace in some architectural detail, you get a picture of this really ostentatious feasts that they\u2019re having, the banquets that they\u2019re having, the throne rooms with multiple layers of security before you can get to it. So there\u2019s lots of lots of realistic detail in there. At the same time, people have pointed out that the Greeks love to make fun of the Persians for their ostentatious-ness, or over the top, the veneration of the king kind of thing. Whereas the Greeks were much more egalitarian. And like, you know, maybe there\u2019s someone who\u2019s leading but that might rotate, there\u2019s no one who has a divine right of king and therefore a big throne kind of thing. So there\u2019s\u2026 you can debate whether it\u2019s\u2014I should say that Xerxes rules from 485 to 465 BC, and Alexander is about 150 years later, so it\u2019s probably somewhere in there, that would be my guess. But if you know, someone said, \u201cNo, no, it\u2019s 30 years after that,\u201d I\u2019m not sure that much depends on it. There is a lot of realism and the other thing is, it\u2019s clearly not from the same time as the story. It sort of refers back to the king, like that great king, back then who ruled over such a large empire. So, it\u2019s written from a lighter time period, but how far later it\u2019s hard to say exactly. It was within a century or so. Of course, it doesn\u2019t mean that it refers to events that really happened\u2014I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ll come back to that later on. But\u2026<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, yeah, I mean, let\u2019s get into that in a bit. Because I think that\u2019s a really important piece for people to sort of understand the lay of the land, you know, of\u2026<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, if I can, maybe, to ask a question that maybe navigates around to that question, is the question\u2014You know, we talked about when, and maybe where it was written, but what about why it was written? And I think it\u2019s important to ask that question, because I think a lot of people who grew up in certain religious traditions, that\u2019s almost a question that doesn\u2019t even dawn on them to ask because the answer\u2014again, for me growing up in my tradition, it\u2019s like, \u201cWell, because it actually happened and this is, we\u2019re recording historical data. That\u2019s why it was written down. Why wouldn\u2019t you write down history and what exactly happened? And, you know, God has preserved this historical record for us, so that we can understand God\u2019s history.\u201d That kind of thing. So to even ask, \u201cwhy was it written?\u201d I think assumes some things. So I don\u2019t know if we can ask the why question without maybe dipping our toes into the historical question, but maybe you can help us navigate that.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah. Well, I think that\u2019s actually a great point. And I do think that, even assuming, you know, like, \u201cOh, this is exactly what happened,\u201d which we can come back to. I don\u2019t think that\u2019s actually enough to explain why something was written. I mean, the Bible itself often says, like, \u201cOh, there\u2019s more stuff that happened but I\u2019m not gonna tell you about it.\u201d It\u2019s not taken for granted that because something happened, therefore it has to be written down. We can talk about the details of Esther in a bit because here it\u2019s particularly not clear that reading Esther will help understand God\u2019s plan for the world, because God\u2019s never mentioned here. But even in a story where God is mentioned, most of the biblical narratives, I don\u2019t think the biblical authors took it for granted that because something happened, it ought to be written. I mean, we modern people have this historical impulse, like, you know, I\u2019m always shocked if there isn\u2019t a biography or a shelf of biographies about some important person. Like if something happened, like there should be books about it. But that doesn\u2019t seem to be true in the Bible. You know, they\u2019re very selective in what they tell\u2014or at least what was preserved. So, I do think that\u2014that, you know, the way you frame the question is really helpful, because I think no matter what, we have to ask that question. In this case, yeah, maybe I should have said a little bit more about the time period, not so much about when exactly the book was written, but the setting. So the people who lived in Judah\u2014Judea\u2014were exiled back in 586 BC, so, by the time Xerxes comes to the throne, in Susa, Jews had been exiled for 100 years, or a little bit more than 100 years. They were exiled by the Babylonians, the Babylonians sort of collapsed and were taken over by the Persians. So, now, Jews live in exile, in Persia.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Can I ask you a question, Aaron? At this point, how many Jews have returned? I mean, some\u2014Many stayed.\u00a0<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right, exactly. Right.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n But some came back.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n A temple, already, was built in between, before the story of Esther, before Xerxes. So we have pretty specific dates and stories in various biblical books. So the temple has been standing in Jerusalem for about 30 years by the time Xerxes becomes the king. But we\u2019re told in the Bible that the community in Jerusalem, when the Second Temple was built, was small and poor, and really struggling just to survive in a tough neighborhood without any real, functioning government or economy.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So, the vast majority of Jews are still in, call it of exile or diaspora, but at this point, it\u2019s by choice. They\u2019ve opted not to go back, no one\u2019s telling them they can\u2019t go to Jerusalem or to Judah. But they\u2019ve opted to stay, and you know, we got a picture from the book of Esther, they\u2019ve become pretty comfortable there. I mean, Mordecai has a really good Babylonian Persian name. So, does Esther, like, they seem to be pretty much at home, off in exile and diaspora. So the Jews, I would say that the more that life became comfortable in diaspora\u2014which it clearly did\u2014the better life was for the Jews in pragmatic terms, right? Like their way of life, it\u2019s just comfortable, like, they\u2019re not struggling, they\u2019re not slaves, they\u2019re not being uprooted and moved around all the time. So that\u2019s a good thing. But theologically, I think that itself is actually a problem for a lot of Jews, at the time. That\u2019s one of the things that Esther is trying to think about, because it was never supposed to be this way, right? Like the prophets had told Israel, \u201cWell, God\u2019s gonna punish you and destroy Jerusalem, and then bring you back.\u201d And they\u2019re not back. And you might say, like, \u201cBut you could go back,\u201d but they\u2019d say, like, \u201cNo, but, it\u2019s not that we\u2019re supposed to go back, God\u2019s supposed to bring us back.\u201d So they\u2019re sitting there in exile, like, trying to figure out like, what does it mean to live as a Jew in exile? You know, with all the normal things about biblical religion, like, you know, \u201cWe don\u2019t have a temple, we don\u2019t have a king, we don\u2019t have a center of religion,\u201d like all these things that, you know, the Bible sort of depends on, don\u2019t exist here. And so what is the Jewish life like in exile? And I think, I think the book of Esther is, in a large part, meant to try to open those questions and say something about life in exile.<\/p>\n [Ad break]<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n We\u2019ve mentioned a couple times already, maybe we can talk about the historical issues in the book. And I mean, just one question toward that topic of historicity, there is\u2014I\u2019m sensing from what you\u2019re saying\u2014there\u2019s a realism, perhaps, to animosity on the part of Persians towards Jews. Right? So we have Haman, who\u2014I mean, one can expect that to happen, perhaps. So, might there be something in the memory of the people that, you know, they\u2019re talking about some very difficult periods of time that they had living under Persian authority?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, it\u2019s a great question. And I think certainly, through the lens of later readers, this seems like so natural, because we know at various times of pretty deep rooted anti-semitism in various areas of the world. So, you know, looking back in history, like, \u201cOh, well, of course, you know, there\u2019s anti-semitism in the Persian court as well.\u201d We don\u2019t know of any, from any other sources, real animosity towards the Jews in particular on the part of the Persians. You know, the Persians\u2026 Hey, look, on the one hand, they\u2019re a militaristic, imperial power, you know, they\u2019re not nice in any normal way. [Laughs]<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughing]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n But on the other hand, they have a real \u201clive and let live\u201d attitude towards the minorities in their midst. In some of the kings, this is like a real philosophical pluralism, like, they really respect every group that they\u2019ve inherited in their empire, and we don\u2019t really know that they\u2019ve singled out the Jews. Even in the book of Esther, we get the sense that there are Persians, like Haman, who turn on the Jews, but there are lots of other Persians who are on the Jews\u2019 side. And actually, you know, we get this line that when Haman\u2019s decree goes out to kill all the Jews, the entire city of Susa is sort of befuddled and confused by that, because\u2026<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Hums]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n You get the impression like they\u2019ve been living alongside each other for a couple of generations already. And they\u2019re like, \u201cWhy? Why Jews? Like what\u2019s wrong with Jews?\u201d It\u2019s hard to say whether that\u2019s really reflecting something. Of course, it\u2019s totally possible that there was some episode where something went terribly wrong, and, you know, Persians absolutely turned on the Jews pretty violently, but we don\u2019t know of it from elsewhere. And it is possible that this is sort of a Jewish sense of\u2026 A sense that, you know, \u201cWe are different, and therefore, we wonder whether everyone else hates us because we\u2019re different.\u201d Even if that hatred is not really there all the time. It\u2019s hard to unpack that in the terms of-<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n I mean, also, I mean, it\u2019s very, you know, it\u2019s entirely plausible. And it\u2019s probably the truth, that this is a fictional drama, an account\u2014well, it\u2019s really not even a drama, but\u2014it\u2019s a fictional account that gives voice to a real issue. Sort of like the book of Jonah, you know, it\u2019s a fictional account that gives voice to some issue that is of value to a particular community.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n I assume that\u2019s right. I mean, there\u2019s levels here that we could pick apart and worry about, but besides not having evidence for the story of Esther from elsewhere, which we wouldn\u2019t necessarily expect to have. Of course, Xerxes\u2019s a real person. But Herodotus, the Greek historian, is contemporary with Xerxes. He actually travels to Persia during Xerxes\u2019 reign, and happens to tell us about Xerxes\u2019 wife, Amestris, whom he\u2019s married to when he comes to the throne and who outlives him. So, in the story of Esther, who in the book, becomes queen halfway through Xerxes\u2019 reign and then doesn\u2019t fit in. Herodotus also tells us some other details about how the Persian kings married, which doesn\u2019t work with the Book of Esther. So, it\u2019s hard to say like, oh, it couldn\u2019t possibly have happened. But it doesn\u2019t seem to be, doesn\u2019t seem to match what we do know.\u00a0<\/p>\n And then I think, again\u2014I think this is sort of implicit here, in the way you phrased the question, which was really insightful\u2014because there\u2019s nothing about fiction that makes it inferior to nonfiction. Fiction is sometimes the best books in the world, which actually can address questions in more profound ways than something that\u2019s constrained by facts. So, if the Jews are really worried by some pretty deep issues about like, \u201cWhat does it mean to be a Jew in the diaspora at this point?\u201d It could be that just mundane facts on the ground, they\u2019re not sufficient to actually think through that. Whereas a really probing fictional work can raise those issues in a much more profound and searching way. It\u2019s also, I should say, like, it\u2019s not impossible there is some story behind this where like, there was some animosity, some episode that gave rise to the story. But I think as we have it, it\u2019s basically a work of literature.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So, okay, so while we\u2019re on this, let\u2019s just continue then, and give us a sense of, you know, historical problems in the book. And again, not just like, say, \u201cHaha what a dumb book, it\u2019s historically inaccurate.\u201d But that gives us also a sense of sort of the feel of the book, the genre of the book. So what would you point to\u2014to help people see the historical difficulties with the book?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So, the truth is, other than the story itself, the book is very realistic.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Hums]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n I\u2019d say even more realistic than the vast majority of biblical stories, because I mentioned this before, but it\u2019s really sort of central to thinking about Esther, there\u2019s no- there\u2019s nothing supernatural in this book. You know, you get to Daniel who\u2019s more or less\u2014like, both the book and the character more or less contemporary with Esther, and Daniel gets, you know, thrown into a lion\u2019s den, but don\u2019t worry the angel\u2019s there to close the lion\u2019s mouth. Or, you know, his friends get tossed into a fiery furnace that\u2019s raised up to seven times the heat, but like, don\u2019t worry the angel\u2019s there to like somehow magically get them cooled off in the middle of this fire. But Esther is actually entirely believable in the sense that nothing miraculous happens. The whole story is on a mortal plane, there are real characters\u2014some of whom are sketched. It\u2019s a very short story in the end of the day, but, but some of the characters is sketched\u2014Like you really get a sense for like Haman\u2019s personality, you get a sense for some of Esther\u2019s identity conflicts in a way that, I think, is both very gripping and essential to the story, like she\u2019s struggling with who does she want to be and where her loyalties lie. And these things are done in a very effective way. And the, it\u2019s not obviously fully plausible that in a battle 75,000 people die on one side and zero people die on the other side, but that, at least, doesn\u2019t involve anyone you know, stopping the sun in the sky or, you know, stars falling out of sky to fight against enemies or anything.<\/p>\n I mean, it is like, they picked up the swords and they fought and they won. So, there\u2019s nothing in the story that sort of like boggles your imagination. And the truth is until modern times\u2014and I mean, like relatively recent modern times\u2014everyone took it for granted that the story was historically accurate, because there\u2019s nothing in the story that makes it inherently impossible to take as accurate. It\u2019s only once we learn more about Persia, and we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, wait, this is a real person, like, Xerxes is busy invading Greece. How can you be throwing 180-day parties?\u201d Or, you know, we know his wife, so, you know, how could he be marrying this other person? Then we just sort of run into facts that make it likely that the story is like, a really good historical fiction, rather than nonfiction. But the story itself doesn\u2019t sort of sit up and knock you on the head and say, like, \u201cCome on, you can\u2019t take me seriously.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughs]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Like, there are other books that just, you know\u2014besides the miracles, which is obviously a matter of faith to take or not take on face value\u2014but there are books outside of the Hebrew Bible. So, books like in the Apocrypha, like Judith, which start with historical nonsense, like \u201cNebuchadnezzar, the king of Assyria, and a town called Tertullia\u201d. And you\u2019re like, \u201cWait, none of this is right. Like none of these facts are lining up.\u201d So it\u2019s almost as if the book is telling you from the beginning, like, \u201cLook, this is not history, right? Like, we\u2019re reading something different here.\u201d There\u2019s nothing in Esther that does that to you. You know, it sets it very clearly in the third year of a real king, in a real palace, and a real capital. So, it\u2019s really only because we happen to know a lot about the ancient world, that we assume the story is fictional.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Okay, so, you\u2019ve written about how the book of Esther challenges current Jewish beliefs, which is fascinating. Could you talk about what that means? And so what? Who cares? Why challenge current Jewish beliefs?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yes, so this actually goes back to Jared\u2019s question from earlier. Because, you know, the question of \u201cwhy is a book written?\u201d It looks very different when we read a book as biblical. Which, of course, you know, these books reach us, and they\u2019re in the Bible. So, it means they\u2019re bound in certain covers, and they, you know, are preceded and succeeded by certain books, and you\u2019re like, \u201cWell, I know how to read this book. It\u2019s a biblical book, it\u2019s speaking to me across the generations.\u201d But\u2014this is gonna sound sort of obvious, it was worth saying anyway\u2014the author of Esther didn\u2019t know that he was writing a biblical book.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n He didn\u2019t know that there was gonna be this thing that was gonna be bound in like leather covers, or like stuck in every hotel room, that would be the Bible, and therefore, didn\u2019t take it for granted that this book was just going to like sort of fit into one grand message to people thousands of years later. So I think that\u2019s important to say, even though it\u2019s obvious, because it opens the door to think like, \u201cOh, hold on, what\u2019s on his agenda? And he\u2019s not just writing chapter 17 in a long multi-part series here, he actually has something possibly distinctive and unique to say.\u201d And the book of Esther is so different from most of what we get in the Bible that, I think, that has to be intentional. And this, actually, took me a long time to sort of come to think of it in this way\u2014But Esther is, as I sort of mentioned a couple of times already, that there\u2019s no mention of God. And this is, on the one hand, a really obvious observation about the book of Esther. On another hand, probably the most important thing to say about the book of Esther, because that\u2019s so crazy for a book in the Bible not to talk about God. So it\u2019s part-<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Agreed.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughs] Right? I\u2019m glad. To partly that\u2019s a question of like, \u201cHow could a book that doesn\u2019t talk about God find its way into the Bible?\u201d Which I think is a really important question. But it also goes back to the author, because this has to be a conscious move. I mean, it\u2019s not like today where like, \u201cOh, I don\u2019t wanna say anything about God in my books, because then people won\u2019t take me seriously.\u201d No, on the contrary, everyone takes God for granted. I mean, you can debate, you know, there was a lot of theological debates in ancient Israel, but like, that there was God is not a serious question in ancient Israel. So the choice to not tell the story with any mention of God has to be, like, a really deliberate move on the author\u2019s part. But then sort of like a whole bunch of observations that kept piling up that made me realize that the book is really doing something pretty dramatic.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, there\u2019s a number of features of the description of the royal palace in Susa, which are really reminiscent\u2014like very closely reminiscent, even in the words that are used\u2014of the temple in Jerusalem and other descriptions in the Hebrew Bible. Like, that\u2019s interesting, you know. Is this a suggestion, for example, that the temple used to be really important, but now, it\u2019s not so much anymore, and it\u2019s been replaced in significance by the palace in Susa? That would be a pretty daring thing to say, maybe no one would want to come out and say that, but you can sort of drop hints about it. The heroes, Mordecai and Esther, are from the tribe of Benjamin\u2014which is not the tribe that\u2019s supposed to give us the great leaders of the Jewish people anymore. Right? That, of course, is supposed to be from the tribe of Judah and the lineage of David. Which other books pick up on, you know, other books in the same time period pick up on Judah\u2019s significance but this book\u2019s like \u201cNo, no, it\u2019s actually related to Saul.\u201d \u201cLike, Saul. I haven\u2019t heard about Saul in like 600 years.\u201d [Laughs]\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughs]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n But okay, you know. Saul is sort of like the anti-David, and like, you know, that\u2019s the model of a hero here. There\u2019s no apology for the fact that Esther is sort of bluntly intermarried. It\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, she marries a king. That\u2019s okay.\u201d So, at the beginning, like okay, \u201cWell, you know, it\u2019s a secret. So she had no way, no choice, that\u2019s fine.\u201d But by the end of the story, she\u2019s come clean that she\u2019s Jewish, and there\u2019s no attempt to say like, \u201cOkay, well now that I\u2019m\u2026\u201d You know, \u201cOh, honey, Your Majesty. Now that you know, I\u2019m Jewish, we\u2019re gonna have to have a kosher kitchen.\u201d It\u2019s like, there\u2019s no Jewish law in the book. There\u2019s no-one\u2019s keeping the Sabbath. No one\u2019s praying, like\u2026<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So very not like Daniel.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Exactly. It was like a perfect contrast. Because Daniel is at the same time, basically the same place, and he\u2019s like, \u201cOh. I have to pray at my window three times a day in the direction of Jerusalem.\u201d So Esther never prays\u2014certainly not three times a day\u2014there\u2019s no mention of Jerusalem. You know, we said earlier that the temple in Jerusalem is already standing. But you would never know that from the book of Esther. The book of Esther, like, ignores the fact that there are Jews back in Jerusalem, like, the only place that matters in the book of Esther is Susa, that\u2019s where everything happens. That\u2019s where the fate of the Jews rests. Like, you know, they\u2019re gonna live or die depends on, like, whether Haman or Esther wins the battle for the king\u2019s heart. But the fact that there\u2019s a temple in Jerusalem that\u2019s offering sacrifices? Irrelevant to Jewish history. Which is a crazy thing to say\u2014and like, again, you know, it\u2019s hard to be sure that the author would say that in such bold terms, but I do think that the author is is trying to say, like, \u201cLook, life in exile is not the same as you know, the book of Samuel, or stories of David, and the kings and so on. Like, it\u2019s just not true that the center of the universe is Jerusalem anymore. Maybe that was true. But you know what, right now Jerusalem is actually part of the Persian Empire and so the important things that affect even the future of Jerusalem are actually taking place in Susa.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n Yeah, so I think, you know, politically, I think, it thinks a lot harder about diaspora and not just as a sort of fate to bemoan, but as a reality that you need to think about. Like, if you\u2019re going to be a diaspora Jew, you can\u2019t just spend your life lamenting the fact that you\u2019re not in Jerusalem. You can, but you might die. [Laughs] Because that\u2019s not how life works here. And here, you need to be politically astute, you need to be wandering the halls of power, you need to be like, have your ear to the ground to find out who\u2019s with you, who\u2019s against you. Because that\u2019s how life works in diaspora. So, this is the new reality. It\u2019s not a question of whether you like it or not just, it\u2019s just the way life works.<\/p>\n [Ad break]<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So given that reality\u2014you know, and you talked about the fact that the author wouldn\u2019t have recognized at the time that this is going to be in this grand message as sort of this, put next to other books, and then be read in this univocal way where there\u2019s this grand message. So I would assume the fact that it has been put in this library of books we call the Bible has changed how it\u2019s been interpreted over the years. What are ways then that Jewish interpretation or Jewish tradition history, or maybe even Christian interpretation has handled Esther in a way? Because I would imagine there\u2019s people who have been uncomfortable with all the things that you just said about how Esther seems to be portraying life in the diaspora.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, I think that\u2019s right. It\u2019s hard to know exactly when and where it started. But I think that\u2019s exactly right, that already some of the early readers are like, \u201cWhat kind of book is this?\u201d [Laughing] \u201cWe can\u2019t tell this story to our kids. You know, if I tell the story of Queen Esther to my daughter, you know, she\u2019s gonna think it\u2019s okay to marry a Gentile and like, you know, then the Jewish people are gonna fall apart and not gonna survive.\u201d And you know, not to mention that, you know, there\u2019s no God in Jerusalem and, and so on. I think that\u2019s definitely true. So, it\u2019s hard to know where it starts, but we get\u2014but one of the things that\u2019s really fascinating about Esther is that there are at least two, probably a little bit more but, but at least two really different versions of the book in the Bible. And it\u2019s going to totally depend on which Bible you open. So, now it\u2019s a little bit complicated, because everyone wants to be like, ecumenical and pluralistic and stuff, but it sort of messes up the neat dichotomies that we used to have in religious divisions, but it used to be\u2014still true in some places\u2014but it used to be that if you opened a Catholic Bible, the book of Esther would start in a very different way than if you opened a Protestant or Jewish Bible. And a Catholic Bible starts the Book of Esther with Mordecai having a dream. And this this is totally not in the book in the Jewish and Protestant versions. It was in essentially\u2014I mean, like, like most things that are the Catholic scripture, but not in Protestant Scripture\u2014Basically, it was in Christian scripture until Luther sort of noticed that it wasn\u2019t in the Jewish version and was like, \u201cWell, this doesn\u2019t belong. You know, this is obviously something that the church has put in, we have to take it out.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n So, the version of the book of Esther that Jews and Protestants have, just doesn\u2019t have a dream of Mordecai. The Catholic version has Mordecai having a dream, he says he sees two dragons who are fighting, and the fight is really severe and it threatens to overturn the entire world until a little spring comes out from the earth and becomes a river and rushes through them and brings peace. That\u2019s the very beginning of the book. And again, it\u2019s still in the Catholic version, the very end of the book has Mordecai saying\u2014after the whole drama with Haman and so on\u2014he says, \u201cAh, now I understand Haman and I, we were the two dragons. Our animosity threatened to overturn the whole world.\u201d It\u2019s not a perfect match to the story, but that\u2019s what he says. But Esther is the spring that became a river and brought peace to the world. And this is a really interesting dream, because, first of all, just the fact that he has a dream already puts this period you mentioned earlier, Daniel. So, Daniel\u2019s the great dream interpreter, or maybe even going further back, Joseph is the dreamer who can also interpret dreams. So, now you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, Mordecai, I get it. You\u2019re like a biblical hero, like Daniel, like Joseph, like, God sends you dreams that sort of hints at what\u2019s happening. And then you uncover like the meaning of the dream that was a sort of prophetic message about what was going to happen.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n But that\u2019s the kind of Mordecai that we don\u2019t get in the Protestant, Jewish version of the text at all. There\u2019s nothing prophetic about Mordecai in the other version of the text, he has no insight into the world like beyond what anyone else has. He\u2019s just a regular person who\u2019s like working hard to try to stay alive and make his way through a messy reality. So, at some point, there was a version of the book that was developed that included Mordecai the dreamer, who was more of a biblicizing hero. There\u2019s also in the same versions, in the Catholic version, there are some additional scenes in the middle of the book, one of which is actually\u2014people have probably seen these\u2014like dozens of late medieval Renaissance art of Esther fainting in front of the king, and find like all of the great artists painted this scene. That scene\u2019s not in the book, in the Jewish\/Protestant version of the book. She never faints, but in the Catholic version she does faint, that\u2019s an additional scene. And in the Catholic version, that\u2019s immediately after she has this extraordinary prayer to God apologizing for being intermarried, protesting that she is innocent, she only does it because she has to. But really, she hates being queen, she loves God, she just wants to be faithful to her Jewish community. And this sort of apology is just not there at all in the Hebrew version\u2014that\u2019s also the Protestant version.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, you know, it\u2019s always an interesting question, like, what, was it added in? Or was it taken out? Obviously, you know, one or the other, because we have these two versions. I think in this case, it\u2019s pretty clear that it was added in. And the reason is exactly\u2014Jared, what you said\u2014because some readers were like, \u201cThis book is crazy. Like, we just can\u2019t have a book like this. So at least let\u2019s have Mordecai be clearly a prophet. And at least if Esther is going to be intermarried and eating, you know, non-kosher food and drinking wine from the king\u2019s table, at least let her apologize for it.\u201d<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Feel a little guilty about it.\u00a0<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, exactly. Right [Laughs].<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, you use this term, Aaron. Let\u2019s continue with this, because it might help people listening\u2014you have this wonderful term about \u201cthe move toward biblicizing Esther.\u201d<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Hums in agreement]<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right? And that seems to be what you\u2019re describing, is an attempt to sort of bring this book in line, you know, with, let\u2019s say, core or central theological tenets in early Judaism, or something like that.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n I think that\u2019s well said. That\u2019s exactly right. That it\u2019s scholars\u2014and I think we have a real gap here between traditional readings and a scholarly approach, and it\u2019s not that one\u2019s right, one\u2019s wrong. It\u2019s that they really are asking different kinds of questions. And when I say traditional readings, I mean, you know, going back thousands of years\u2014a couple of thousand years\u2014but just thinking about the book in a different way. So, if you assume that the author, as I said a few minutes ago, that the author\u2019s sort of sitting there thinking like, \u201cHmm, I\u2019m gonna write a book that\u2019s going to counter some of the things that other people have said or are saying\u201d or whatever. That\u2019s sort of consciously taking this book as idiosyncratic because like, this book is not<\/em> like other books. It\u2019s not<\/em> going to agree with Daniel. It\u2019s even possible\u2014I mean, I you know, I don\u2019t know how seriously to say this\u2014but like, it\u2019s possible that actually the book of Daniel is what provoked the author to write Esther, and he was like, \u201cOh, come on. Don\u2019t pretend that you\u2019re gonna live in exile, pray, ignore the king\u2019s laws, and it\u2019s all okay because if you get tossed into lions that an angel is gonna save you. Like, that\u2019s not true, be realistic, you know you\u2019re gonna live in exile, you\u2019re gonna have to think harder about what it means to live as a Jew in exile.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n So that\u2019s a way of thinking about the book that very consciously takes apart the anthology that is now the Bible. It says, \u201cNo, I don\u2019t assume that the book of Esther is going to speak with the same voice as the book of Daniel, or even the book of Genesis. They don\u2019t have to agree on things and I\u2019m going to try to let each voice speak on its own.\u201d Whereas a community of faith comes with almost the polar opposite assumptions. It\u2019s like, \u201cLook, I got the Bible. I know the Bible is an anthology and I don\u2019t pretend that one person sat down and wrote from Genesis through Revelation, or Genesis through Esther, Chronicles, you know, wherever we end the Bible. I don\u2019t think that, but I do think that some very important people in my religious life have said that these books together are what you need to live a faithful life. And so, if I assume that, then I can\u2019t go in and say, like, \u2018Oh, I see here, this debate between Esther and Daniel.\u2019\u201d I shouldn\u2019t say you can\u2019t. I think you can. But that\u2019s not typically the way we do it.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n It\u2019s a harder path to get there sometimes.\u00a0<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Exactly. You could argue like, \u201cOh, well, isn\u2019t that interesting. The Bible is giving me options, or the Bible is showing me you know, a debate.\u201d Like, that would be interesting. And people said that, for example, about like, you know, the Bible starts with two creation stories, Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, 3. They could have been written by the same person, but the Bible starts off with two different stories as if to say, like, \u201cLook, the world is a complicated place.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughs]<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n So, I don\u2019t know, maybe say the same thing about Esther and Daniel, you know, maybe the Bible would be trying to say, \u201cLook, I don\u2019t know what the right answer is.\u201d You know, there\u2019s different ways of living in exile. But I think most faith communities assume that there\u2019s a single voice. And I think that\u2019s exactly right, that interpreters have, therefore\u2014sometimes consciously, but I think mostly unconsciously\u2014just assumed that Esther is meant to be read in light of what we know to be core to the Bible. Like if the Bible takes Jerusalem as central, takes the house of David as like, the past, present and future of Jewish leadership, then Esther can\u2019t disagree with that. If God runs history, then the book of Esther isn\u2019t free to just, like disagree, and, you know\u2014in that case, the traditional reading has always been that\u2014that\u2019s the point. God, sometimes maybe, especially in exile, works behind the scenes. So if you don\u2019t see God, that\u2019s a surface level problem.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Right.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, maybe, because we\u2019re coming to the end of our time, but I\u2019m curious if we could bring that up to modern day for two reasons. I have two reasons for asking this question. One, is I think our audience maybe doesn\u2019t understand and I think it\u2019d be interesting, just to expose them to the practice of Purim now, and sort of what does that look like. But I think it continues this conversation of how do Jewish communities, how do they celebrate or talk about or enact or embody\u2014I don\u2019t know how we want to use this term\u2014where we continue this tradition through today, do we see in general, in Jewish communities practicing this more religious\u2014I don\u2019t know the right word\u2014where maybe, we\u2019re biblicized\u2014That\u2019s maybe the right word to carry the theme\u2014Do we see communities today practicing more of this biblicized version of Esther, or is there still this back and forth? Is there a disagreement on how to do that? How would we characterize how this sits with Jewish communities today?<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n That\u2019s a great question. I think there\u2019s probably like two and a half answers to that. So one, is that if you sort of go to an area in\u2014Well, I\u2019m in England now, so I don\u2019t know what it\u2019s like here\u2014but in New York, where I spent a few decades, so a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn or Queens, New York, you\u2019re gonna find lots of people out on the street on the holiday of Purim\u2014which is always one month before Passover, exactly one month before Passover. So it\u2019s sort of easy to figure out where on the calendar is going to be. And the most noticeable things that you\u2019ll see is that the holiday of Purim doesn\u2019t worry so much about the politics of the book of Esther or anything of that sort. Instead, the themes that are really fixates on are the questions of identity, and everything being upside down and masked. So costumes are a big part of this. It\u2019s springtime, so there\u2019s also like a carnaval kind of thing going on here, probably. This sense of like cross-dressing, for hundreds of years, has been a big practice on Purim\u2014men dressing up as women, women as men\u2014something which is normally actually frowned upon in Jewish law. But on Purim it\u2019s like, \u201cNo, no the world backwards, like, you know, everything\u2019s just different.\u201d And that\u2019s certainly a theme in the book of Esther, like, is Esther Jewish? She\u2019s dressed up, she\u2019s acting as a non-Jew. She\u2019s the Queen of Persia, but then she comes out as a Jew. So this sort of hidden identity, revealed identity. That\u2019s actually one of the major themes of the celebration, and related to that is actually a lot of drunkenness\u2014which also like maybe kind of carnaval influence but also a sense of the Talmud says that \u201cyou have to drink enough until you can\u2019t even figure out like who was good and who was bad.\u201d Was it Mordecai who\u2019s good and Haman who was bad, the other way around? Can\u2019t remember. Like everything is just mixed up like the world is complicated and things are not straightforward. I do think now from like a sort of outsider\u2019s perspective, that that may be thematically related to questions of exile and diaspora, where like, it\u2019s not so easy to be straightforward about questions of politics and identity, like, things are tricky. Are you pretending to be one thing, but actually doing something else? A sort of trickster kind of way of life, rather than a straightforward, declare your identity at the door and just wear it proudly kind of thing. Like that doesn\u2019t always work so well.\u00a0<\/p>\n So, I think a diaspora life leads itself to a sense that, like, sometimes things are just mixed up. It\u2019s not black and white, it\u2019s like, different shades of gray. But most people, I think, you know, in the celebration, they\u2019re not thinking about the politics of the book of Esther. But there have been certainly modern thinkers who were like\u2014some of the early Zionists actually argued to cancel the holiday of Purim. Like, \u201cPurim is a diaspora holiday. A holiday where you celebrate someone having to compromise on their religious practice in order to just to stay alive? That\u2019s not the kind of thing we want to be doing. We will fight to establish a homeland and Purim is sort of antithetical to everything that we we believe in,\u201d so they\u2014there are some pamphlets from the early part of the 20th century, just advocating for the abolishment of the holiday altogether, because they did see it as a diaspora holiday.\u00a0<\/p>\n On the other hand, I think it\u2019s, you know, it\u2019s like most good literature and like most religious practices, it\u2019s multi-valent enough and flexible enough that I think most people just see in it what they want to see in it. You know, you can see it as nationalistic, see it as pluralistic, see it as xenophobic, see it as embracing assimilation, and there\u2019s lots of different ways that people take it. It would really be fascinating, I mean\u2014Jared, I think there\u2019s sort of a very long way of me saying that, like, I would love to have a survey of what people actually think when they celebrate it. But given all the alcohol, probably most people are not thinking that much anyway. And of course, like practices just aren\u2019t typically theorized that much. You know, it\u2019s like, \u201cOh, it\u2019s fun.\u201d Kids\u2019 festival, costumes, like, it\u2019s all\u2026 It can be fun without being too intellectualized. But you know, these themes do get debated and aired from time to time and in different ways.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming\u2014I feel like that brings us\u2014I don\u2019t know, I feel like we went on this journey through several centuries here.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n 2500 years, yeah.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Yeah, great, great points. I\u2019ve really appreciated the comments on what this has to do with how we think about the Bible, and what it is, and what we can expect from it, and maybe what we shouldn\u2019t expect from it. So thanks for weaving in a lot of really big questions, while also just educating us on something I think a lot of our listeners, and for me surely, has learned some new stuff. So\u2014<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n And then inspiring people to read the book, I think, you know?<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Mhmm. Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n No, it\u2019s a great story, and it\u2019s really, really short. I mean, you have to read it slowly, because, you know, like most biblical narratives, you know, it doesn\u2019t develop things slowly in a lot of detail. So it goes by really quickly. But you know, savor it. It tends to take more than an hour even reading slowly. And it is a great, rich story.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, listen, thank you so much, Aaron. We had a great time talking with you and elucidating Esther for us and appreciate you taking the time, all the way from across the pond as they say to spend some time with us.<\/p>\n Aaron\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n [Laughing] Yeah, it\u2019s a real pleasure. Thank you for having me.<\/p>\n [Outro music]<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com\/give.<\/p>\n Pete\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n And if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to TheBibleForNormalPeople.com\/join.<\/p>\n Jared\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show!<\/p>\n Outro\u00a0\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n You\u2019ve just made it through another episode of The Bible for Normal People! Don\u2019t forget you can also catch the latest episode of our other show, Faith for Normal People, wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for Normal People podcast team: Brittany Prescott, Savannah Locke, Stephanie Speight, Natalie Weyand, Stephen Henning, Tessa Stultz, Haley Warren, Nick Striegel, and Jessica Shao.<\/p>\n [Outro music ends]<\/p>\n<\/div>\n