\n<\/p>\n
Jared:<\/strong> You\u2019re listening to Faith for Normal People, the only other God ordained podcast on the internet.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> I\u2019m Pete Enns.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared<\/strong>: And I\u2019m Jared Byas.<\/p>\n [Intro music plays]<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Alright, folks, it\u2019s time to tell you about our April class, which is part of our spring semester in the Old Testament, taught by our very own Pete Enns. This April class is called Divine Violence in the Old Testament: Exploring Violence in the Biblical Text.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> How do we make sense of the many stories in the Bible that portray God as, at best, ignoring violence, and at worst, explicitly calling for it? Is God violent? These questions have plagued readers of the Bible for centuries, moving beyond theory to practical and devastating applications, including the justification of human acts of violence. So in this class, we\u2019re going to challenge simplistic interpretations that assume that we need to accept these depictions of God as violent, just uncritically.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Because we\u2019re so generous, this class is available for you to watch instantly when you purchase it. And like always, it\u2019s pay what you can, but only from April 1st to 15th, and then it will cost $25 to download. As with all of our spring classes, it comes with a study guide, so you can stay engaged while you watch. And so you can write down your questions for the live Q&A with Pete that\u2019s coming at the end of the semester.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> And if you\u2019re a member of our online community, the Society of Normal People, you\u2019ll get automatic access to the class and study guide on the 1st. Plus an exclusive video of our Nerds in Residence having a wild roundtable discussion about the class. Membership to SoNP costs just $12 a month. And when you sign up, you\u2019ll get access to all of our classes, an online community to talk about the Bible with, live podcast recordings and more.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> For more information and to sign up for the April class, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com\/divineviolence<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n Today on Faith for Normal People, it\u2019s just me, Jared, and I\u2019m talking about grief with J.S. Park. J.S. is a hospital chaplain and writer who writes about his many years dealing with grief and loss as a chaplain. Don\u2019t forget to stay tuned at the end of the episode for quiet time when Pete and I will reflect on the conversation. Hope you enjoy this interview with J. S. Park.\u00a0<\/p>\n [Transitional music plays under teaser clip of J.S. speaking]<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> \u201cIt was Christ who said we serve God with heart, soul, mind, and strength, which means that we\u2019re made of many parts. And so when I look at someone who is grieving, each of us, we have different needs. I\u2019m always asking, \u2018What can I do for this person right now?\u2019 And I attune myself to that person so that I\u2019m not burdening them. But if I\u2019m already life and life with them, is there a way that I can serve this entire person because they are a holistic being?\u201d<\/p>\n [Ad break]<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, welcome to the podcast, Joon. It\u2019s great to have you.\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Jared, it\u2019s an honor to be here. Thank you for having me.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Absolutely. We\u2019re going to talk about grief and I\u2019m really excited. That\u2019s an interesting way of saying that, I\u2019m excited to talk about grief, but I think it\u2019s an important topic. But before we do that, can you maybe just give people a little bit of your background? Why are you equipped to talk about grief?\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah. For almost nine years, I\u2019ve been a hospital chaplain. I work at a level one trauma center. And so most of what I see is death and dying and sitting with people who are often living the worst day of their lives. It\u2019s a heavy job. It\u2019s very, very difficult most days, but it is, uh, what I\u2019ve been doing for almost nine years now. When I say level one trauma center, I also work in the ER and we see level one traumas, which are gunshot wounds, stabbing, fire, fall, car accidents, stroke, as you can imagine, very, very difficult crises in a patient\u2019s life. And so I go sit with the dying. I\u2019ve sat with dozens, if not hundreds of deathbeds. And we offer and provide assistance for end of life care, spiritual counsel, grief counsel, sometimes just sitting with a patient as they tell their story. Sometimes we get into the more technical matters of what happens when a person dies and what are the next steps. And so I guess that makes me intimately familiar with grief and loss, death and dying.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> You\u2019re no stranger to it. You\u2019re in the trenches. And so that, that\u2019s why I\u2019m eager to unpack some of this stuff with you because I think it\u2019s not just theoretical for you. It is in your day to day. So, can you just talk a little bit, give us some context of what is grief? Like how does it function as you\u2019ve experienced it and see it?<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> The clinical technical definition of grief is our body\u2019s, our mind\u2019s, our heart\u2019s response to loss. Our entire response to loss. And not just death, but it could be the loss of dreams, could be the loss of a job. It could be the loss of a relationship, the loss of a home, loss of our connection with people, with pets, with things that are familiar to us.<\/p>\n And the way I\u2019ve seen it in the hospital, I\u2019m dealing with very extreme crisis, the moment of illness and injury. And I\u2019m seeing people in various stages of recovery, but being in a hospital, it\u2019s very acute care. And so a lot of the grief that I\u2019m seeing is from the patient or from their family and their loved ones. And so that response to grief, I think when I started almost nine years ago, I had maybe a very narrow definition of what grief looked like and what grief is. Maybe sort of a somber, sad, even composed Hollywood type of reaction. But what I found is that grief can run a very extreme range of seemingly 0ver the top emotion, all the way to shutdown fatigue, cognitive fog, sitting in a chair, no tears.<\/p>\n And so, certainly my range of \u201cacceptance\u201d of what grief is, has expanded and continues to expand. I continue to see different kinds of reactions, whether that\u2019s shouting, screaming, rolling on the floor, dancing, rocking back and forth, chanting. I\u2019ve seen it all and I keep seeing more. And so grief is, I believe, what our body needs as we experience that loss. It is our almost natural response to when we see something irrevocably taken away from us.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> So I\u2019m funneling a lot of our listeners coming from a more religious background. It was interesting that it seemed like you talked about it kind of in the broader culture too of how there\u2019s many unhelpful ways that people deal with the grief that others are going through. It\u2019s almost like we\u2019re uncomfortable with other people\u2019s discomfort, and there\u2019s the sense of, let\u2019s be quick about this grieving thing. Yes, take the time, but I think even in our structures of how much time we get off of work for when a loved one dies, it\u2019s sort of like, there\u2019s boundaries to it. Take three days off. That\u2019s plenty of time, right? And then you need to get back onto it. So can you say something about these unhelpful ways that you\u2019ve seen? Maybe not the people who are going through the grief but the people who are trying to support the people going through the grief have dealt with, kind of grief adjacent maybe as a way of saying it.<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s a great question Jared. You\u2019re talking about uh in the religious context, you know in the book I talk about that pastor who came alongside with my patient who was suffering something very severe and the pastor gave, uh, sort of those pat answers and sort of almost suppressed or denied my patient\u2019s grief, their parishioner\u2019s grief. And you know, I used to get so mad about that kind of thing, those sort of cliches and platitudes and the bypassing. And what I\u2019ve come to understand, I think what I have a lot more empathy for\u2014even though I think it\u2019s still fundamentally wrong to, of course, steamroll somebody\u2019s grief.<\/p>\n When we see someone in pain, we so badly want to fix it, or we so hurt when someone hurts, that we may think that a particular phrase or a combination of words will somehow act as a balm to this person\u2019s suffering. And so loved ones that I see come alongside, I used to get so angry and outraged whenever they would say those things like, \u201cwell, at least heaven\u2019s getting another angel,\u201d you know, or \u201cthis is God\u2019s will to refine you in the fire.\u201d You know, those sort of unhelpful things. And what I found is that loved ones at bedside, they\u2019re attempting to insert hope into a very difficult situation in an attempt for that person who is hurting to cling on to something as they\u2019re falling into the abyss of their own mortality and frailty.\u00a0<\/p>\n And what ends up happening is that the person offering that, they think they\u2019re doing something good. And in some ways, there\u2019s a bit of a self centeredness to it because it\u2019s a way to soothe themselves because they\u2019re hurting seeing that hurt. And the thing that they\u2019re offering to their loved one, the patient, the person in the bed, it\u2019s little more than cobwebs. It\u2019s not really going to help. But I do have a lot more compassion for that because what I\u2019m seeing is loved ones at bedside who give that sort of advice and cliche, they\u2019re in a sense also looking into the abyss and there\u2019s an almost existential panic that they\u2019re going through as they\u2019re seeing suffering.\u00a0<\/p>\n So I have a lot more kindness towards that. And I try to navigate very carefully. Okay, the loved ones are also hurting, seeing their loved one hurting. And so how can I both face the reality of what this person is going through in their suffering and also offer something to this family who is so afraid of going there, into that place of mortality? And I think in some, you know, many religions, I would say, many worldviews are not afraid to face suffering. I think every single worldview talks about at least two things: sin and suffering. And what ends up happening, though, is that when you take just half the religion, the hope part of it, instead of confronting the suffering, many people will pull the eschatological curtain of hope over a person\u2019s suffering, thinking that they\u2019re doing that wounded person a favor, and they\u2019re really not. They\u2019re just smothering them under sugary cliches. And so, hope is real, I believe hope is real, and at the same time, how can we enter that person\u2019s hurt in that moment, now?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> It seems like there\u2019s hope, but hope has a time and a place, and we often want to shortchange the process. There\u2019s a process that needs to be gotten through to get to the hope, and it\u2019s like, we don\u2019t want to wait. We want to bring that as close to the moment as possible, because it\u2019s uncomfortable, and it is, it\u2019s painful. I guess, what\u2019s a way to, in those moments, for you, you said entering into that space with them. What has been helpful? What have you learned when someone is in grief, they\u2019ve lost something, they\u2019re responding to that loss. What\u2019s been helpful in your experience for that?\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, very quick upfront answer that I can give. I always think of these two words when I\u2019m in a room: name it and validate it. So anything that person is going through, sometimes we think, oh, if we name the sadness, if we name the suffering, then we\u2019re introducing negativity into the room, and somehow we\u2019re speaking death into the air.<\/p>\n And I have long now since believed that naming it, in some sense, gives us a grip onto what is happening. It sort of puts an anchor down and puts a flag down and almost says, All right, I don\u2019t have to look away from this anymore. Because we expend so much energy with denial and suppression that actually naming it, saying, this is really sad, this is devastating, or that loss is hard, or I can\u2019t believe that he\u2019s gone, this is unthinkable, this is, you know, horrific. Being able to name that almost gives a person suddenly like a window into what they\u2019re facing. Because when it\u2019s unnameable, it almost feels like we\u2019re drowning. It\u2019s like being out in the ocean and all the stars look the same. But if you\u2019re able to at least connect a very simple constellation or find a glimpse of a north star, even if that North Star is buried under a storm, just being able to name that, hey, there\u2019s a storm here.\u00a0<\/p>\n There\u2019s something about that, and maybe I\u2019m being too poetic, there is really something about that where I\u2019ve seen suddenly the patient, not that they\u2019re fixed or cured or anything gets solved, but there\u2019s almost a composure that occurs, or almost a solidifying of that person\u2019s narrative.<\/p>\n Like they were just drowning under something unnameable. So you know, it\u2019s the same with like, uh, when you think of a patient who they\u2019re waiting for test results, and they\u2019re hurting, there\u2019s something going on in their body, and they need a diagnosis. Is it scary to get a diagnosis? Absolutely it is. But as soon as the physician can name something with the test results, it suddenly gives a name and almost like a fixture to what is happening to that person. And it\u2019s scary to say the C word, cancer. It\u2019s scary to say I have this virus or bacteria, but now suddenly I can face it.\u00a0<\/p>\n And then the other thing I said is validating it. Not taking away from what this person is experiencing, not steamrolling, not suppressing, not bypassing, not spiritualizing, not moralizing it, but just being able to say, that is really hard, or sometimes I\u2019ll say, you know what, I would be sad about this too, or I\u2019d be screaming about this too. And those are not little tricks that we can do. I mean, it\u2019s something sincerely that we need to be completely present in, to be able to name it because it\u2019s scary. And then being able to validate it completely and genuinely.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, and also if you grew up in a tradition, you know, like I did where, like you\u2019re saying, like to be a faithful Christian was to have hope, which was to always be positive, which was to look at the bright side of things. And then if that\u2019s the worldview that you have, then you could also feel like something\u2019s wrong with you, like you\u2019re broken or you\u2019re all alone because you have these feelings that don\u2019t feel positive. You feel sad and you feel alone. But instead of that being validated, like that\u2019s okay to feel that way, you\u2019re immediately like isolated from everybody around you because they\u2019re saying, you know, heaven\u2019s gained another angel today or look on the bright side at like, well, how can you be that sad? He\u2019s in heaven now, that kind of stuff. There\u2019s a disconnect between how I\u2019m actually feeling and what other people are telling me I\u2019m supposed to be feeling.<\/p>\n And so that validation can also bring just a level of, Oh, maybe I\u2019m not broken in how I feel. That my feelings can just\u2014it is sad. And I think that can be healing in a situation where you can\u2019t force your feelings to be positive. And I feel like that\u2019s kind of the message I had as a kid was like, no, you, you just speak it, kind of name it and claim it. If I say it positively, I should feel positive about it. So, I think that\u2019s another, I don\u2019t know if you have experience with that kind of toxic positivity and how naming it and validating it can bring that kind of healing, but I think it\u2019s also, what we don\u2019t need in those moments, I guess is what I\u2019m trying to say, is also a feeling like I\u2019m broken, like I\u2019m not supposed to be feeling these ways.<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah. Yeah. There\u2019s an old subreddit, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s active anymore, or, or even a hashtag that\u2019s like, \u201cThanks, I\u2019m cured!\u201d It\u2019s like, you know, you just say the positive thing. It\u2019s like, Oh yeah. Oh, I should have thought of that earlier. Just don\u2019t do it wrong. All right. Thanks. I\u2019m cured. You know? Right.<\/p>\n Yeah. And you know, even going back to like, my favorite Bible character is Elijah, you know, and in 1 Kings 19, you know, the infamous story of when he sits under that broom tree, maybe cause all the other good trees were taken. And you know, he says the thing where he says, um, \u201cTake my life, Lord. I\u2019m no better than my ancestors\u201d because he\u2019s just so discouraged and he\u2019s running because there\u2019s a hit on his life.<\/p>\n And then, you know, he falls asleep and the angel comes. And what\u2019s so interesting is that God does not come with a lecture or a lesson and not an epiphany, not some kind of moralizing, but instead the angel comes with food, you know, soup, bread, hot water. And then, uh, I like Elijah\u2019s reaction, he eats it all up and then he falls asleep again. And I\u2019m like, man, that\u2019s a grief reaction if I\u2019ve ever seen one, you know? Just, you\u2019re tired, you\u2019re fatigued, you get up, you eat, you go right back to sleep. And I think that, you know, God doesn\u2019t say anything negative about that at all. And then when Elijah wakes up again, the angel touches him. Which is great also, you know, meeting his physical needs.<\/p>\n And then says, uh, \u201cGet up for this journey, it\u2019s too much for you.\u201d And I love that that\u2019s named. This is too much for you. And then also the implication of that, you\u2019re not going to be alone in this. And what I\u2019ve found is there\u2019s so much naming and validation just in that simple story. And I feel like I\u2019ve told that story a thousand times, but I go back to it often in that even in scripture, when we think, oh, scripture is all about jumping towards the positive, it really isn\u2019t. There\u2019s so much naming and validating happening all throughout its pages.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Moving to the practical, because I think there\u2019s a lot of people who want to be a truly helpful presence with somebody who\u2019s grieving. How did you get comfortable with the discomfort? Because I think sometimes it\u2019s just the awkwardness and the discomfort of not knowing what to do. And if it\u2019s like, if I don\u2019t know how to fix it or solve it, I get uncomfortable, and then that\u2019s going to lead me to leave sooner than I wish I would have or say things that I\u2019m going to regret. How did you kind of work through in your own way, like, your own feelings of discomfort around people who are grieving?\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, you know, I can give you a practical and then sort of an internal answer to that, I think. The practical being, whenever we feel that impulse to try to fix or try to say something, I think in the moment there needs to be a practice in which we say, wait a minute, let me just put a filter on this real quick. Is this going to be helpful for this person and it will help bear them up or will it be a burden on them? To sort of always ask that question. And I know that can feel like second guessing or that can feel like, Oh my gosh, am I always going to have to do that? But it is a very precarious situation when someone is grieving. I think it\u2019s very important to ask that question. So there\u2019s the practical part of it in the moment. Let\u2019s just ask ourselves, is this going to be helpful for this person right now? And it\u2019s going to be a different answer for every person, because just as we all need differently, we all grieve differently.<\/p>\n And then the other question to ask internally is \u201cwhat is it in me that is so quick to want to fix this, and what is the internal work that I need to do?\u201d Chaplains, we get this year and a half training. We did six months of an internship and a year-long residency. And all of it, I was not surprised to find, I guess, I would say, in fact, probably three fourths of it was internal work. Getting to work on how I confront and embrace my own grief. And what are the obstacles that prevent me from grieving fully? What I found is that I grew up in such a turbulent, abusive, and traumatic household that I found myself in my, my group can tell you this. My supervisors can tell you this. I found myself in the training that I jumped to positivity because in my home, there was very rarely a bow tie at the end of the night. My parents, it was traumatic, it was abusive.<\/p>\n And so I think I\u2019m quick to jump to positivity as a way of almost maybe reflexively fixing my childhood trauma. And so I need to wrap things up like a 30 minute sitcom. I gotta make sure everything\u2019s bowtied. I gotta make sure we\u2019re all cool. Like if somebody\u2019s got an issue with me, I have to talk it out with them. So i\u2019ll bring them coffee and tea, pick one, take both, you know [laughing] here take my wallet! I\u2019m so wanting to make sure that there\u2019s no issue Instead of just letting things be unresolved, and maybe no bow ties at all. The dishes not clean and stacked. So, for me, that was internal work that I needed to do. And that\u2019s the longer work. I think we can do the practical in the room, but the longer work inside our own basement to confront ourselves on that.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> That\u2019s really helpful. How much of that is, you\u2019ve mentioned, kind of confronting mortality. Is that a big part of learning to grieve and learning to grieve alongside others who are grieving well? Is confronting that reality of mortality, is that something that you found people do well or do poorly?\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Jared, I, I wish I could tell you that I have aced, uh, confronting mortality because nine years, almost nine years later, and hundreds of patients later, hundreds of deathbeds later, I wish I could tell you I got this on lockdown, I\u2019m an A plus at looking death in the face, and I\u2019m not, really. In fact, if anything, I think you\u2019ve read through the book, I talk about my death anxiety and what ended up happening to me, how much my vision changed, how much my perspective and worldview changed. And that I lost my faith in fact more than once and came back, but differently each time. Yes. To answer your question, there\u2019s certainly\u2014all of us have an innate fear of mortality and loss.<\/p>\n You know, there\u2019s an old philosophical theory that every religion exists as a way to manage our own terror of death. And so, uh, that\u2019s called terror management theory. But it\u2019s really one of those things where it\u2019s like, there\u2019s always a worm at the core is kind of the central thesis of, you know, everything eventually evaporates into loss. We\u2019re all headed towards entropy. So because of that, humanity\u2019s response philosophically, and I\u2019m getting probably really deep in the woods here, is anthropologically we\u2019ve all come up with these kind of frameworks and worldviews to deal with that. And yet, you know what? I think most of us are, in fact, if not all of us, are afraid of mortality, afraid of change, afraid of confronting ourselves because something has to change.<\/p>\n Even people who get promoted. You know, even good change involves loss. You know, when people get promoted, they grieve something too, even people who move to a city that\u2019s better than, you know, the ideal city that they wanted to move to or an ideal home, there\u2019s still feelings of grief there. And so, I don\u2019t think there\u2019s ever a place or a time where I can say or people I\u2019ve seen can say, I\u2019m comfortable with it now. I\u2019m totally cool with death. You know, but maybe that discomfort, maybe that terror, rather than it being something that is a constant dread, even though we can\u2019t necessarily get rid of it, maybe we can see it a little differently than before. You know, eventually my death anxiety gave way to almost like this intense presence of mind, like, any minute, any one of us can go. I could, after this interview, walk outside, and on a walk, there\u2019s an aneurysm in my brain waiting to take me. You know, and that\u2019s very morbid to think, but I\u2019ve, I\u2019ve seen it now dozens of times, you know? And so that gives me this almost intensity about, really, it\u2019s all short and it can all go.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah, reminds me as a, when I was a kid, it\u2019s, uh, my background is actually in philosophy and my obsession with the fact that I was going to die as a kid is probably a lot of what motivated that sort of going into a kind of the existentialists and trying to figure out like, how do we confront this reality?<\/p>\n I mean, as a kid, I always liked to be in control. And death was this thing that kept me up at night all the time because it was like the one thing. I kept trying to like, manipulate it in my mind as a, you know, nine or ten year old. I\u2019m like trying to, it\u2019s like this wall that I can\u2019t get around and I never could. It\u2019s just, it is the thing that\u2019s coming for you. And that always, you know, spurred me on to philosophy and all these other things.\u00a0<\/p>\n So besides that, you mentioning you, your faith, and I want to maybe tie these two things together because we have probably a lot of listeners whose faith is shifting and changing, and they\u2019ve probably lost a faith that they\u2019ve had. And maybe they\u2019re cobbling together a new faith or maybe not yet, or maybe they won\u2019t. And there is a grieving in that. There is a loss in that. Can you speak to, given your experiences as a chaplain with loss, but also your own faith journeys, how have you figured out how to manage the grief of a faith transition?<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, you know, I didn\u2019t expect to be so angry as I started losing my faith. And I think the anger had a lot to do with the faith that I learned from pastors and from churches is not holding me through crisis and through suffering. And I was so upset that it was almost like I was handed something that was never gonna work.<\/p>\n Like, here\u2019s this parachute, but actually it\u2019s just a, it\u2019s just a knapsack. You know, that old joke. Yeah, for me it was, uh, after seeing so much, anyone can die at any time, it seemed to be random, haphazard, and chaotic. It was almost like there\u2019s no order to any of this. And then what can faith in itself really do for me?<\/p>\n I think one of the pointed questions that I asked was, you know, I see physicians and nurses doing something, even machines doing something, but what does God do here? And so, that was a horrifying thought to me. I mean, I grew up atheist and I came to faith very late in life. But I think what ended up happening was maybe this was like a blessing in disguise like they say, or hidden mercy. I had to shed, almost like a snakeskin, all those old ideas of faith that were not working at bedside. Even those things like \u201coh, well don\u2019t say that now you can always say that later\u201d and I\u2019m like, well if If it doesn\u2019t work right now, why would I even say it later? [Chuckles]<\/p>\n You know, those kinds of things. And so maybe this is sort of, uh, like a, an unoriginal thing that I\u2019m going to say, but what I learned was that if the theology, if it\u2019s something that I have to hold up, I just let it go. But if it\u2019s something that could hold me, that\u2019s what I kept. And if it\u2019s something that can hold my patients through their suffering and my patients\u2019 family, then yes, that\u2019s the thing that will hold you and keep you. And that\u2019s the thing worth holding on to. Everyone eventually will come to a point, whether it\u2019s trauma, crisis, tragedy, sickness, illness, injury, abuse, seeing the cruelty of the world, something where the veil is peeled back, and we see the harshness and coldness of reality, and how hard it can get. And then whatever worldview we\u2019ve had, whether that\u2019s faith or something else, some kind of belief, it\u2019s going to be challenged.<\/p>\n It\u2019s going to be put through a fire. And some people will decide \u201cI don\u2019t want to believe any of it.\u201d And I\u2019ve worked with chaplains who over time, their faith has changed so much. And I think I\u2019m just trying to make more and more room for\u2014however you find yourself in your belief, the most important thing is, uh, I\u2019m going to keep being there with you. Like my supervisor said, you know, every chaplain who goes through this, their faith box gets exploded, you know, but she said, but however you turn out on the other end, I\u2019m going to be there for you. And that for me, what was most important is that presence.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah. It sounds like there\u2019s, it\u2019s important to have somebody in your life that can say that to you.<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> And the reason that\u2019s so important, I think, you know, sometimes I\u2019ve seen how clergy, pastors, churches\u2014if they see a church member who\u2019s losing their faith because they\u2019re experiencing something hard, it seems like the goal is, let\u2019s throw apologetics at them so they don\u2019t lose their faith. Instead of, hey, how can we be present for this person no matter what they end up believing? And that, that to me is the priority.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Right, and, oh, if only we had communities of faith more and more that would, would do that. I just, you know, with our audience here, just having, I\u2019ve had dozens if not hundreds of conversations with people where that\u2019s exactly what didn\u2019t happen. Is their faith starts to shift, their faith, they start to have questions, and they\u2019re immediately excommunicated. Because they\u2019re seen as, it\u2019s almost like they\u2019re contagious, their doubts and their confusion about this faith that was supposed to hold them up, that\u2019s not doing what it seemed like it was promised to do. And they just, even asking the questions are contagious. And now sort of like we have to not, we can\u2019t associate with you anymore. I\u2019m sorry. Like, and then there\u2019s, there is an idea that to truly wrestle with your faith can\u2019t come from a genuine, uh, set of questions, but there\u2019s usually some ulterior motive.<\/p>\n You know, you\u2019re just trying to like, do things your own way, right? Or you\u2019re not trusting in God. You\u2019re just trusting in yourself. And that just kind of doubles down this pain that people feel. So for me, it comes back to what you just said of like, for some reason, the way you said it, I just thought, Oh my gosh, if everybody had this supervisor who said your faith box is going to get exploded, but I\u2019m going to be here for you no matter what comes out the other end is just such a, it sounds so simple, but what a profound thing that I think a lot of people are missing.\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah. I mean, you know, ironically for the church and for pastors, it\u2019s like when I see God the least, I will again see God the most when people hang in the most, you know, but unfortunately, when I tell someone I\u2019m not seeing God anymore, and then there\u2019s that withdrawal, there\u2019s that dismissal. There\u2019s like, you know, I\u2019m just going to take steps back. Oh, because we don\u2019t believe the same thing anymore. And it\u2019s like, ironically though, I would see God the most if you hung in the most, you know, at that moment when I see God least.<\/p>\n [Ad break]<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> How do you, and maybe this is a personal question that you can answer or not answer or evade however you want. In kind of your faith journey or just amongst other chaplains that you\u2019ve seen, just the amount of suffering that you see, there was this\u2014in your book this phrase that I thought was really profound talking about God. You said \u201cmy trust in this person is broken\u201d and it just it was very personal in a way that struck me. How have you seen for yourself or others walk through that level of suffering, either experiencing it or seeing it and and coming out with a faith in God?<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, it is true what my supervisor said. All of us who have been through the chaplain program, by the end of the training, we\u2019re all a little bit different theologically, spiritually, or if we hold on to our faith and our faith tradition, we at least approach people in a way that is much different than maybe how we started.<\/p>\n I wish I had an easy answer for you that, you know, the people who came out the other end holding more or less a faith, that there was some sort of pattern that I saw. I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s a question that you\u2019re asking Jared, but yeah, maybe the quickest way to answer this is I guess when I said my trust in this person was broken, it does seem all of us eventually get to a point where we shake our fist at God.<\/p>\n It\u2019s one of those things where it\u2019s like, I want to believe, maybe faith is the only thing keeping me together. I\u2019m so mad at you right now, God. Because this prayer, it would have been a simple prayer to answer, just this one treatment that would have worked, just this one person, just, just another chance. Or, gosh, two more minutes and this family member could have said goodbye to their loved one, but their plane showed up a little bit late. God, you could have just answered that at least. And it\u2019s not just about, God, do what I want, you know, or God, answer this prayer like that. It\u2019s just we\u2019re seeing so much of almost the degree of suffering, the extremity of suffering. It\u2019s like, God, can you just a little bit just ease up, you know? And so I would say all of us, even if we continue to believe, even if those who have kept their faith and certainly I have seen chaplains who have lost their faith or their faith just completely changed, we\u2019ve all, in turn, have probably shouted at God.<\/p>\n And you know what? I think, you know, at least in scripture, there\u2019s a prescription for that. There\u2019s lament, you know, there\u2019s imprecatory prayers. There is a way to shake our fist at God that\u2019s still communicating with God, I think. And so the times when I lost my faith, I sometimes wonder, uh, did I lose my faith, or really, did I lose ideas that I had to lose?<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Right. Well, that is a great segue into the next question I had, was, it just seems there\u2019s a, there\u2019s a profundity, there\u2019s a depth to sitting with people in their suffering that changes you. And we\u2019ve talked about how it can change you in this way of loss of faith. And, but I, I can\u2019t but help think that there are also some really positive, you know, like you said, even the people who hold onto their faith approach people in suffering differently as chaplains, as people who\u2019ve experienced this level of suffering. So how has being a chaplain changed you? How has it changed how you show up in the world?\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> You know, I wish it didn\u2019t take suffering on our part to understand someone else\u2019s suffering. I wish it didn\u2019t take trauma or a loss or something hard in order to empathize with someone. However, having said that, when we do experience suffering, trauma, loss, when we are sitting at bedside seeing it all the time, there is something that fundamentally internally shifts where hearts, our hearts can expand and make room for a person\u2019s response and deepen the reservoir of courage that we have or compassion really for people that we see suffering.<\/p>\n So in that sense, and I hope I\u2019m answering your question, Jared, I think I\u2019ve made this joke before. I would wish that everyone would have to serve at a restaurant for six months, do chaplaincy for six months. I think it would change all of us. I did work as a busboy at a restaurant for four months, and I don\u2019t tip less than 20 percent after that. Even if the service is not the best, as long as they don\u2019t like, insult me or something. I just assume something happened in the kitchen or they\u2019re short-staffed and they\u2019re struggling. So, you know, when, when you kind of, you\u2019re able to see that this is not the most original thing, but just being, having somebody else\u2019s shoes thrown on you, being able to step in their shoes for a little bit. Even being in the vicinity of the very hard and broken road that they\u2019re walking, there is a deeper compassion that we all gain, and it is difficult to judge someone when you see their suffering up close.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared, this may be a little bit tangential to the point, but you\u2019ve probably heard that old story, it\u2019s like a parable almost, where a bunch of people came to a table, they\u2019re all wearing backpacks, and in each of their backpacks they carried their suffering. So they all lay down the table. They\u2019re suffering, you know, opening their backpacks, but they\u2019re suffering. And then somebody at the head of the table said, if you want to exchange backpacks with someone now is the time. And they all looked at each other\u2019s suffering, and then they all picked up their own backpacks and left.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Mm hmm.\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, because they understood. They looked at each other and said, okay. You\u2019re carrying a heavy load too. And, uh, I say that story to say, you know, we\u2019re all carrying something and how can we look at each other with that sort of compassion and look at each other, not in light of our failure, not in light of our morality, but in light of how much someone suffers. It changes us.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, thank you so much for jumping on and talking to us about grief. And there\u2019s just so much more we could talk about in terms of this. Uh, I just think it says the church, at least in the tradition I grew up in, is so bad at grieving and so bad at allowing people to feel loss. I just think there\u2019s a lot of work to be done.<\/p>\n So maybe my, my last question for you is on that. Just how do we make changes in a culture that is just not good at this, who doesn\u2019t have the time and space for grieving, um, and for loss. What are ways if we\u2019re in positions of, you know, leadership where we can make a difference, where we can kind of help create spaces, what are some ways we can do that so that we can help make more room for this in our culture?<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Yeah, I would say at least two things, Jared. I can speak directly to the church, but also, you know, the broader culture. How do we serve the whole person? Churches and pop culture, maybe there is a very narrow way in which we serve a person. Maybe in the church, it\u2019s, I gotta get this theology to this person, almost like a drive-by sermon, and then I\u2019m out.<\/p>\n You know, but even in that story with Elijah, God looked at, Elijah has physical needs. Sleep, his hunger, words of encouragement. So how can I, with this grieving person, is there a way that I can come over and clean up their house? Can I cook meals for them? Is there something that would lift the burden off of this person? Instead of just the theology, which may be important and helpful, is there a way that I can serve this entire person because they are a holistic being?\u00a0<\/p>\n It was Christ who said we serve God with heart, soul, mind, and strength, which means that we\u2019re made of many parts. And so when I look at someone who is grieving, each of us has different needs, I\u2019m always asking what can I do for this person right now? And I attune myself to that person so that I\u2019m not burdening them by saying, what can I do for you, because sometimes that can also burden them a little bit in that they have to come up with something. But if I\u2019m already, you know, life and life with them, then I may know what that person needs.\u00a0<\/p>\n Yeah, and then I think the other thing that I would say to church culture and the broader culture is just to expand our definition of what this person is going to experience, and in their experience, how they\u2019re going to react and respond. You know, because it may be very extreme. There may be in, for example, American church culture, there may be some churches that look at someone\u2019s grief response from a different type of culture and say, wow, that\u2019s too much. Or say, I\u2019m not used to seeing that. But I would say, just expand a little bit. And have a wider vision about what it might look like for this person in this culture to grieve.\u00a0<\/p>\n Sometimes we look at the way that someone honors someone for, you know, there are some cultures where they may grieve somebody by wearing black for a year. Or they may talk to their loved one who is deceased every morning. Something like that, there may be certain churches that say, wow, that\u2019s very morbid or that\u2019s leaning too much towards death or something like that. We need to let go and move on. But is there a way that we can respect that? And is there a way that we don\u2019t look at that and just judge that person and try to make it a moral, spiritual, theological issue? But how can we embrace all of it?\u00a0<\/p>\n In my culture, the Korean American culture, many Koreans are also Christian. We celebrate the death day of our patriarch and matriarch every year. And there may be some Christian churches that say, wow, you\u2019re not supposed to pray to like, you know, or something like that, you know, you\u2019re not supposed to pray to ancestors or wow, you\u2019re not supposed to look back on death that way. But we actually do a Korean Christian service commemorating and honoring our matriarchs and patriarchs. And that\u2019s almost a way of saying, thank you God for allowing this person into my life. We can celebrate them once a year. The pastor comes over and we have a meal and there\u2019s both sorrow and celebration.<\/p>\n And I think the church and the broader culture would do well to be able to ask, in what ways can I serve this person and understand that my definition of grief may not fit theirs, but still I want to carry them deeply with compassion and with grace.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s great words to end on, Joon. And thanks again for jumping on. I said it, I think, before we actually hit record, but, uh, your book is beautifully written and I really, I really enjoyed it. So thanks for writing it and thanks for coming on and talking to us about grief.\u00a0<\/p>\n J.S.:<\/strong> Jared, thank you. Appreciate you and much gentleness to you and everyone who\u2019s listening.<\/p>\n [Music signals beginning of Quiet Time segment]<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> And now for quiet time\u2026<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> \u2026With Pete and Jared. So, Jared, in your interview with Joon, he defines grief as our total response to loss. And, I mean, just personally, what kinds of losses have you endured and what was your response?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah, I appreciate this. I think I\u2019m a pre-griever. And so I think that\u2019s, since I was a young kid, I don\u2019t like to feel surprised or out of control. So, I would often pre-grieve things. Like, I was a little obsessed with, you know, death when I was probably nine or ten and I spent a lot of time like imagining my parents dying and imagining people I love die. Because I wanted to kind of process, I think I had this intuitive need to process my feelings about it over a long period of time so that when the time came, I was ready for the loss, but I think that\u2019s important because I\u2019ve seen the value of having the time to grieve.<\/p>\n And I\u2019ve also seen the resistance of that where people think that\u2019s weird or morbid, or they don\u2019t want to talk about it. They are uncomfortable talking about it. And in my other life, as a family business advisor, you know, we\u2019re often doing like crisis planning of people and it\u2019s amazing how much they resist the idea of, Hey, you know, you\u2019re going to die someday. Can we plan around that? And it\u2019s almost like, no, the planning of it, there\u2019s just this superstition that the planning of it will bring it about, or something. But there\u2019s just a resistance to talking about loss, and then knowing what to do with it when it, when it comes. How, but what about you? How have you, how do you respond to loss?<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> I think in a similar way, and I would strike it up to anxiety, like I\u2019m always, I\u2019m scanning the horizon for all the most horrible things that can possibly happen, and I land on those, and I anticipate how to handle them, and that sort of thing. So, I think what that does, I mean, from, I don\u2019t like that. I actually don\u2019t like doing it. I\u2019d rather just be present and let the grief come authentically when it happens. I also respond not so much the grieving, but more, okay, we have a problem now. How do we address it? How do we, like when my parents died, for example, you know, it\u2019s like, okay, this is happening. This has happened. What do I do?<\/p>\n And you know, it\u2019s been my mother, like 12, 13 years, my father, like 16 years. And I\u2019m now starting to think more about that and missing them in ways I didn\u2019t allow myself to miss them early on in that process.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah, that\u2019s a great way of saying that too. I\u2019m not guilty much of the spiritual bypassing as Joon, you know, we talked about where we just, we placate and give a lot of positive things in the midst of loss. I am much more prone to covering over loss and grief with work. It\u2019s like, well, let\u2019s get we got it. We have things to manage. I don\u2019t have time to feel about this. When my dad died I planned the funeral. I did the eulogy, I was like the pastor on call, I did all of it and in some ways It\u2019s out of a desire to want to participate and be helpful and all that and a good thing. But yeah, you\u2019re right, for me it\u2019s like I wasn\u2019t really grieving that until two or three years later when it\u2019s like\u2026Or 10 years later, like you said, where it\u2019s like, now I\u2019m starting to just be like, I think I was avoiding something.<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> You\u2019re like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I missed a big thing here.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> While we\u2019re on this, maybe I can just flip this question to you. Are you afraid of your own mortality? How do you think about your own death?\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Um, I think that\u2019s a complex question. I, and I have been thinking about that for some, I\u2019m 63 now. I\u2019ve been thinking about this for several years, but not, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s in a, in a fearful way. It\u2019s more of a curious way, you know, and, and very much coming to terms with like everything dies, everything in the universe comes to an end and I\u2019m not going to get out of it. [Laughing] So, um, but that\u2019s where I\u2019ve been attracted to the curious question of like, what does happen to you, right?<\/p>\n So I do think about that. And I\u2019ve written a little bit about that in Curveball and, and there are other things out there that I just, that interest me. I\u2019m always trying to think to myself, okay, why are you looking at that stuff? Is it because you\u2019re already anticipating something that you might not like and to put a nicer spin on it or is it genuine curiosity?<\/p>\n And I\u2019d like to think it\u2019s the latter. Like I just, I\u2019m not freaking out. I just want to know, you know? And I think, you know, the idea of dying and then finding out whether you were right about stuff is interesting to me too. That sounds rather selfish, but like, yeah, Pete you\u2019re so screwed up in you\u2019re thinking, but not as screwed up as some other people, but man, you just don\u2019t get it. So, yeah, yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah. And I think there\u2019s something with age too that for me and, and people that, you know, friends that I know and things. I think there\u2019s also as you get older, depending, I guess, on, on the ability to confront your own mortality through the years. But there is a sense, too of, oh, no, I get it as I get older. Like, I get it. I\u2019m getting more tired. I, there\u2019s a sense of being ready.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> When my grandmother, when she was 93, she was the last one left. She was in Germany, really living by herself. She was like, I\u2019m done. I mean, I\u2019m, I\u2019m fine with this now, you know, a lot of people don\u2019t have that experience. They die unexpectedly, suddenly, or whatever, but, but still, yeah, I think, and I sort of, I remember her saying that, and I think to myself, well, yeah, maybe that\u2019s me one day. And when you\u2019re ready for what people sometimes call the transition, you\u2019re ready and you go. It\u2019s other people dying that freaks me out more than my own kids.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, because you still have to, again, you kind of come back to, you have to deal with a loss.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Right.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> When you die, you don\u2019t really have to deal with a loss. I think for me, when I was younger, my, I never was afraid of dying, but I was very sad about it, very sad because I loved life.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete<\/strong>: About your own death?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared<\/strong>: Yeah, my own death. I just thought about the fact that I would be missing out and I loved life, so I was really sad about that. And that\u2019s more for me, you know, with other people dying, yeah, why I\u2019m, I\u2019m more upset by that. Because I\u2019m going to be alive to have to deal with the loss and the grief of it.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Were you gaslit at all? Like when your, after your dad died, did people say unhelpful things to you?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah, this kind of spiritual bypassing where it\u2019s like a lot of positive\u2014<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Yeah.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Oh, yeah. I mean, I think growing up in the, you know, in a more conservative evangelical tradition, that\u2019s just the common way of doing it. And even, like, my dad would have been more explicit about like, we don\u2019t, I don\u2019t want anybody crying at my funeral. I want this to be a party, kind of the, I\u2019m, I\u2019m headed to heaven.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> That\u2019s the classic evangelical gaslighting, isn\u2019t it? Of, you know, just as a service of celebration of life. Right. Instead of just being darn sad.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Instead of being sad. Yeah. And it\u2019s almost like, I think it causes harm and Joon and I talk about this in the episode because it doesn\u2019t give any space to validate what seems like a very reasonable feeling. Like, someone I loved and cared about and talked to regularly and leaned on is dead. And I\u2019m only supposed to be happy about that?<\/p>\n Like, it just makes no sense to me. And then you feel so alone, especially if that\u2019s your community, where everyone else seems to be happy about it, and you\u2019re really sad. And it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know. Is that\u2014<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Are they happy though? Are they happy? Or are they not?\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Or it becomes a faith thing of like, I guess I don\u2019t have enough faith because all these happy people seem, you know, and again, like you said, are they really happy or not? I mean, it seems like it\u2019s a, yeah, it seems so backwards to me. It\u2019s like, why, if someone\u2019s close to you and then you don\u2019t get to be around them anymore, why isn\u2019t sadness an appropriate, reasonable feeling? So, did you have much of that? I know you didn\u2019t grow up as evangelical as I did, but.<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Well, I just avoided the whole topic. I was terrified of death. You know, I didn\u2019t think about it because my father was 40 when I was born. So he was always older than my friend\u2019s dads. And so I did the math. I was like, he\u2019s going to die before my, I mean, who knows? And it\u2019s this weird thing. I had this thought once that my father is 53 years old. But he wasn\u2019t, he was 51. I got the age wrong. And so it got into my head, Jared. That this is a premonition that my dad\u2019s gonna die when he\u2019s 50.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Because you got his age wrong once.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> Yeah, exactly right. And this, my brain just latches on to dumb stuff like that. And so, you know, I never wanted to go, I mean, I, I just would avoid\u2026just the thought of going to a funeral. Most kids, who wants to go to a funeral? But for me, it was like, it was almost like a pathological fear. I didn\u2019t want to go. And it really took into my adult years. Really, in my 20s, I had to confront death for another unrelated reason, but that\u2019s when I started thinking differently about it, and as something that I\u2019d have to really encounter.<\/p>\n And I think, teach us to number our days, right, as the psalmist says. I think that\u2019s a good idea, because you\u2019re realistic and you\u2019re not avoiding it. And all the anger that comes through that, and just not living authentically because you\u2019re avoiding thinking about the inevitable, like the people you work with, you know, who don\u2019t want to think about planning for their own death.<\/p>\n I mean, the first time I had to do an insurance policy with my wife and I, and, and the kids was like, I don\u2019t wanna think about that. I remember my mother and father having an insurance agent in the house and they\u2019re, my mother\u2019s bawling her eyes out thinking about dying. It\u2019s like, you\u2019ve never thought of it either, right? This is not helping me, mom, you know, anyway, but\u2014<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Well, I mean, I think it is good for people as they, you know, listening to Joon talk through this and there is a wisdom I think that comes with acknowledging grief, sitting in our grief, feeling sad, and working through that, I think there\u2019s a real wisdom and value and maturity in learning to do that.<\/p>\n So I would just encourage, um, if you\u2019re not there yet, if you\u2019re more like Pete when he was a kid, and it freaks you out, and you can\u2019t get there, you know, I think there\u2019s something to working with a therapist or working with a spiritual director or figuring out ways to accept and integrate this part of life. Like death is a part of life. And grieving and loss, whether it\u2019s not, doesn\u2019t have to be death. It can be relationships and other things. We lose things all the time. And I do think it brings harm to us when we can\u2019t fully recognize it, be grounded in it and work through it and let ourselves do that.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> So, all right, thus endeth the sermon, Jared.<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> Thus endeth the sermon. Peace be to you.\u00a0<\/p>\n [Outro music plays]<\/p>\n Jared<\/strong>: Well, thanks to everyone who supports the show. If you want to support what we do, there are three ways you can do it. One, if you just want to give a little money, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com\/give<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n Pete:<\/strong> And if you want to support us and want a community, classes, and other great resources, go to thebiblefornormalpeople.com\/join<\/a>.\u00a0<\/p>\n Jared:<\/strong> And lastly, it always goes a long way if you just wanted to rate the podcast, leave a review, and tell others about our show. In addition, you can let us know what you thought about the episode by emailing us at info@thebiblefornormalpeople.com.\u00a0<\/p>\n Outro:<\/strong> You\u2019ve just made it through another episode of Faith for Normal People. Don\u2019t forget, you can catch our other show, The Bible for Normal People in the same feed wherever you get your podcasts. This episode was brought to you by the Bible for normal people team: Brittany Hodge, Stephen Henning, Wesley Duckworth, Savannah Locke, Tessa Stultz, Danny Wong, Natalie Weyand, Lauren O\u2019Connell, Jared Cazel, Jessica Shao, and Naiomi Gonzalez.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n