RSS<\/a><\/p>\nTopics Addressed in This Interview:<\/h2>\n
Matt Tully<\/em>
Dane, thank you so much for joining me again on The Crossway Podcast<\/em>.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
It is my pleasure, Matt.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
You open this new book on the theology of 2 Corinthians with a quote from J. R. R Tolkien\u2019s book The Fellowship of the Ring<\/em>. I know you\u2019re a fan of Tolkien. I know you love The Lord of the Rings<\/em>. But I imagine there\u2019s more reason to why you would open this book on the theology of 2 Corinthians with that quote. So I wonder if you could start us off by reading the quote and then walk us through why you find that a fitting way to open the book.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Elrond says at the Council of Elrond, \u201cThis quest\u201d\u2014talking about the quest with the ring that is going to be laid out before the Hobbits and the everyone else\u2014\u201cThis quest may be attempted by the weak . . . .\u201d That\u2019s the key word, Matt. \u201c. . . by the weak with as much hope as the strong, yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world. Small hands do them because they must while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.\u201d \u201cAttempted by the weak\u201d\u2014I just absolutely love that, and it tunnels right into the heart of what 2 Corinthians is all about. Strength through weakness, life through death, comfort through affliction, glory through shame. The passage on \u201cwhen I am weak, then I am strong\u201d is there in chapter 12 of 2 Corinthians. That\u2019s sort of the pinnacle, as I understand it, of the literary flow\u2014the culmination and climax of the whole letter.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
He sort of comes out and just says it.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
He does. Right there. \u201cThorn in the flesh . . . when I am weak, then I am strong.\u201d Well, Tolkien has an insight into what Paul is talking about when he says that the weak hands actually have even more chance of fulfilling this quest than the strong. It\u2019s hope for me as a weak person, and so I just love that insight there from Tolkien which connects with, really, one of the key points of 2 Corinthians.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
It\u2019s such a counter-cultural message, that when we are weak, we are strong. Weakness, at least in the world\u2019s eyes, is not ultimately a virtue, but it\u2019s what God chooses to use. Obviously, that is counter-cultural in comparison to the prevailing secular world, we\u2019ll say, where we see so much emphasis on greatness and fame and power. But I also am struck that it does feel countercultural even in our church culture. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh, for sure.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Do you resonate with that?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Absolutely. The more Twitter followers this pastor has, the more influence and shaping he is doing for this channel and so on. Matt, we\u2019re so deeply spring-loaded to think in terms of natural, innate strength, even as the world assesses strength, and then just sort of importing that into the church using Christian language and categories. But actually, it\u2019s still the same animating, paradigmatic way of looking at the world\u2014with our own smarts, our own degrees, the louder microphones, the bigger crowds as being where significance and ministry is really going to happen. And Paul just flips that upside down.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
As you have studied this book and written about this book of 2 Corinthians where he\u2019s doing that, have you felt yourself personally confronted or challenged, especially as a pastor in that role?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Yes. And I continue to, and I need to continue to, and I\u2019m sure I\u2019ll look back in ten years at today\u2019s forty-four-year-old Dane and say, Wow, he really needed more 2 Corinthians then<\/em>. And the sixty-four-Dane will look at the fifty-four-year-old Dane and say the same thing. I studied this letter, Matt, for a year right after seminary. It was 2006\u20132007, and I just spent the year immersing myself in 2 Corinthians under the oversight of Dr. Hans Bayer at Covenant Seminary, to whom I dedicated the book. And I saw this theme for the first time\u2014strength through weakness\u2014and it came home to me very personally because I saw I am going through seminary studies, my first little preaching opportunities, animated by exactly the mindset of the super apostles. And what Paul was seeking to upend, this idea that more is more, that bigger is better, flashier is more fruitful, and it\u2019s just not the way of God.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s so helpful. We\u2019re actually going to return to some of those specific issues in the book, like the super apostles, and try to dig into what that means and what Paul was getting at in some of these teachings. Some of them are well-known, and many of them are very perplexing to us today. But I want to start with a core idea that you draw out in your book that is present in the book of 2 Corinthians, and it\u2019s this term that we often hear used in theological circles that can be a little bit perplexing to the non-specialists. It\u2019s the idea of the inaugurated eschatology. It\u2019s maybe one of the most jargony sounding theological terms that you or I could come up with here, but it\u2019s actually a really important idea, not just for theology and not just for studying this book but arguably for our lives as Christians. So I wonder if you could unpack what that means and how that plays an important role in understanding 2 Corinthians.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
We could spend the whole time talking about this very thing, brother. Greg Beale says it\u2019s like if you put on green-tinted glasses, everything looks a little green. That\u2019s what wearing the lens of inaugurated eschatology is for reading the New Testament, and especially 2 Corinthians. Text after text pops into clarity and brightness and connects with the rest of the New Testament and the whole Bible and where all of human history is going when we have this lens. They’re big, fancy words. Who cares about the words? We have to have the idea, though, which is inaugurated, which just means begun<\/em>. Something\u2019s launched. Something started. Eschatology is last things<\/em>. So if we open up a systematic theology textbook, probably the last five to ten percent is on eschatology\u2014the last thing\u2019s, the millennium, Christ\u2019s return, and so on. That\u2019s good. That\u2019s fine. That works. But actually, the teaching of the New Testament is that all the things that were going to happen in the end times or the latter days, as the prophets call it, everything the Old Testament was anticipating has already, in the descent of Christ and the Holy Spirit, has already begun in an already but not yet way. In other words, it\u2019s like this. It\u2019s not that some of the promises of the Old Testament have all totally happened and others haven\u2019t started at all. Every single promise of the Old Testament\u2014that Messiah would come, that death would be vanquished, that the dead would be raised, that the Holy Spirit would descend, that the message of good news would flood out to the Gentiles and the nations, and so on\u2014has, in a decisive way, been launched. They are yet to be fulfilled, but the hardest part has been done. So the end times actually, Matt, we are living in the end times. And the key marker for that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. When he walked out of the tomb, the new age began. Here\u2019s one way to understand it. If you and I get into Jesus Christ, we not only are justified (declared innocent), we are not only forgiven of all our sins and so on (adopted); also, our spiritual ID card now says \u201ccitizen of the new realm\u201d (Phil. 3). And that is who we basically are, not half of each. Dane\u2019s in Christ, so I\u2019m not half old realm, half new. Actually, I\u2019ve been plucked up and placed into the new realm that launched 2,000 years ago. That\u2019s who I now am. And the New Testament, including 2 Corinthians, is arguing at every point to live out of and in light of who you now.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s such an encouraging, amazing truth that we do see in Scripture, but I think the problem with it is that experientially it often doesn\u2019t feel like that\u2019s true. It doesn\u2019t feel like I live in a new realm, a new kingdom where Christ is reigning. It feels very much like Christ is distant. I don\u2019t see him around here. How do you reconcile those two things?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh, it\u2019s absolutely true. Here\u2019s the deal. I rolled out of bed this morning, and all my anxieties, fears, many regrets, things I\u2019m ashamed of came flooding over me. And if you ask me thirty seconds into consciousness this morning, Dane, do you belong? Tell me what you feel at a visceral level\u2014old realm or new?<\/em> I am immediately blurting out, I\u2019m an old realm wretched, wretched guy!<\/em> The point of the New Testament is to take that thought by the scruff of the neck, and preach to it what is actually true. This is why we do quiet time. What\u2019s the point? Start your day reacquainted with, re-aglow with, sparkling and radiant and resplendent with the wonder that actually, you do belong to the new realm. The whole point of this is you don\u2019t feel what you are. You don\u2019t feel that way, but actually you are. I\u2019m part of the new temple. The Holy Spirit is in me. I\u2019m in Jesus Christ. I\u2019m out of Adam and into Christ. There\u2019s an overlapping of the ages, so I still in some way feel the vestiges of the old man of Adam clinging to me. That\u2019s why I woke up that way this morning. But actually, here\u2019s what my grandfather would say, preaching on John 4 two generations ago. He said, \u201cStart every day with the fullness that you have in Jesus Christ.\u201d I want to do this interview, this conversation with you, mindful I am totally invincibleized, secure, safe, on my way inexorably into the new heavens of the new earth. What am I worried about? Why would I ever bother to worry about another thing? I belong to the new realm.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
But it\u2019s interesting, though, that there is that word inaugurated<\/em>, which, as you said, implies it\u2019s begun. We\u2019ve launched. But it\u2019s not yet complete. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Correct. Right.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
The overarching message of the book is that the new realm has begun, that we are in Christ and we\u2019ve been launched into that with this sure hope in the future. But in the here and now, the world is turned upside down. Weakness is strength, and Christ\u2019s strength is fulfilled in us. With that in mind, I want to look at a few key passages throughout this book. Many of them will be well-known; some of them might be less well-known but are nevertheless pretty perplexing to us as we come across them when we read this book. And I wonder if you can help us understand what they mean and then connect them to the overarching message of this incredible book. The first is a well-known passage and it has to be 2 Corinthians 1:20, where Paul utters this classic line that we\u2019ve all heard: \u201cfor all the promises of God find their Yes in Christ.\u201d We hear that a lot, but I think sometimes it\u2019s just kind of thrown out. We might not be very precise in our thinking about what that actually means. I think you\u2019ve kind of got at this a little bit already, but unpack that for us.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh my goodness. There\u2019s a whole world of books and sermons inside that one tiny, pregnant little part of a verse, Matt. I think the Greek text literally or woodenly is something like \u201cand all the promises of God, the Yes in him.\u201d There\u2019s a jaggedness at times to the syntax of 2 Corinthians. I\u2019ll come back to the verse in a second. Murray Harris, in his commentary on 2 Corinthians, says the syntax of the Greek text, in a way that doesn\u2019t even come through fully in the English, reflects the agitated state in which Paul is writing\u2014the emotionally raw state that he\u2019s writing out of. And you can see that in phrases such as this. Here\u2019s how I understand it. I would like to grow in my understanding of it. Here\u2019s where I am in my current, present state of development. Paul is saying all the times in the Old Testament when God would say anything to his people to the effect of I am going to do this for you<\/em> or I am going to do that for you<\/em>\u2014yesterday one of the pastors at our church was preaching Isaiah 7 about the coming Emmanuel; it was on the promises of God\u2014every time God has made promises to his people of protection, deliverance, forgiveness, coming salvation, help, comfort, those promises, which are words from God to his people in the Old Testament, got up and walked around in flesh and blood 2,000 years ago in a Galilean carpenter named Jesus Christ, who in his life, death, and resurrection clinched all of those promises and caused them to be irreversibly, decisively true for anyone who gets into him so that the promises of God throughout the old Testament land on and are inherited by anyone who\u2019s in Jesus Christ, whether they are a part of ethnic Israel or not. So Jesus is the one who proves, who fulfills, who clinches, who decisively fulfills. Paul says, Yes. They\u2019re all Yes in him<\/em>. So he\u2019s the culminating point of them all.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Someone might hear that and might criticize that by saying, Well, that requires that you spiritualize all these promises we see in the old Testament to the nation of Israel\u2014promises of land or of physical blessing that God would give to them<\/em>. Is that true? Is that what we\u2019re doing when we say that all of those find their fulfillment and they\u2019re clinched in Jesus?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Yes, but it depends on what one means by spiritualize. If we mean by spiritualize that there is not ever going to be any concrete or physical manifestation or fulfillment of those promises, no.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
You\u2019re saying there will be?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
There will be, yes. All who are in Christ are going to be walking around on this planet, as I understand it, this earth in what the Bible calls the new heavens and the new earth in actual physical bodies that eat and drink and so on. But yes, you don\u2019t have to first sort of try to become a Jew in order to then be a part of the promises that were given to the Jews, because Jesus is the one who was the<\/em> Jew. He was the final one. And so you get into him, and you get all those promises, as I understand it. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s so helpful. Another really well-known passage, and maybe one of the most famous passages in the whole book, is 2 Corinthians 4:16\u201318. Paul contrasts the light and momentary afflictions that we sometimes face in our lives with the eternal weight of glory that we\u2019ll experience in the age to come. Walk us through what he\u2019s saying in these verses and how that fits, again, with the broader message of the book.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Do you not love this passage, Matt? If our entire Bible was 2 Corinthians 4:16\u201318, that would be enough to live on and be happy about. Maybe just for the sake of anyone working out and not with a Bible in front of them as they listen\u2014<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
You might want to grab a Bible for the rest of the conversation.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
\u201cSo we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.\u201d<\/p>\nNow, the key here, Matt, is we don\u2019t want to understand outer self<\/em> as just my skin and inner self<\/em> as my heart and soul. That\u2019s true, but actually, the language used here is the outer man<\/em> and the inner man<\/em>. And what he\u2019s talking about is the old Adam and the new Adam.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Because I think we can read this as, My physical body is the problem<\/em>. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Yes. Right.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
It\u2019s what\u2019s kind of dragging me down, and someday I\u2019ll be rid of it.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Thank you. Excellent clarification. And that\u2019s not what\u2019s going on. Actually, the biblical understanding of the body is that the body is a good thing. It\u2019s good. It\u2019s Gnosticism or Platonism to think we just need to shed this body and fly away and be a soul forever. The body is good. In Dane Orland\u2014and I\u2019m in Christ\u2014there are remnants of the old Adam clinging to me. I belong fundamentally to Christ, the new Adam, not to the old Adam. So the old Adam is, inevitably as I go through life, is wasting away; the new Adam is being renewed day by day as I look to these eternal realities. What\u2019s actually happening is pain, anguish, affliction, suffering, disappointment, discouragement, illness\u2014in God\u2019s wise, fatherly providence, by the Spirit when united to Christ\u2014are actually fostering, nurturing the development and growth and nurturing of the new man in me. I\u2019m not getting any more united to Christ, but the new man\u2014the what Tim Keller called the glory self<\/em>, the one that I was made to be and destined to be\u2014is getting fostered and nurtured through what Paul calls \u201clight momentary affliction.\u201d We know that he was not talking about merely garden variety sufferings. He catalogs them in chapter six and chapter eleven of 2 Corinthians. Profound afflictions. But these hard things are preparing for us. In other words, it\u2019s not just that I go through anguish in this life and then in the next life, the risen life in the new heavens and the new earth, is going to make up for all the anguishes of this life; but actually, the hard things of this life are going to actually be a part of the glory and resplendence of me in the next life. I like to put it this way. Our scars here will be transformed into beauty marks there. That\u2019s what I take from that word \u201cpreparing for us an eternal weight of glory.\u201d<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
I think sometimes we can wonder how that will work. In what way? Will we look back on this time and just see God\u2019s hand? Will it be that he is building our faith in the present? How will that actually work for us?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Well, I would not want to try to answer that in a real dogmatic way. That goes beyond the Scripture. The answer is I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know. I could speculate. All I know is if Jesus actually rose, if this Galilean carpenter plunged down into death and down through the ignominious death (he died a shameful death) up into resurrection life and is now seated at the right hand of God in all glory and every knee will bow to him (Phil. 2), if he went through what Paul Miller calls the \u201cJ-curve,\u201d and if I\u2019m plugged into him (united him)\u2014I have, in one sense, already gone through it and in another sense, I\u2019m going through it 10,000 times throughout my life\u2014and I am going to be raised as well, then all I know is that\u2019s the pattern and the inevitable destiny result. How is it all going to piece together? I don\u2019t know. But I do know that I look back and I see an actual Christ who was raised, and that is the pattern that I\u2019m part of actually, and it will be reflected in my own life. So, I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t want to overly speculate, but we can have great confidence that these afflictions are preparing an eternal weight of glory because of Christ and what he experienced.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s such an incredible comfort, especially in a book like this which can seem a little bit negative. Paul focuses a lot on the bottom of that curve, of being low with Christ, but there is this final destination. Another well-known verse is 1 Corinthians 5:17. It\u2019s maybe the most famous verse from the book. \u201cIf anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.\u201d I wonder if you can start by answering what are some of the common ways that people might misunderstand what this verse is saying?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
It\u2019s a commonly misunderstood verse. There\u2019s no verb in the Greek. It\u2019s like Romans 8:1. \u201cTherefore, if anyone in Christ, no condemnation.\u201d Paul is so excited about what he\u2019s saying he doesn\u2019t even have a verb. \u201cIf anyone in Christ. New creation.\u201d It\u2019s almost like we need an em-dash in English. Some people would say, If anyone is in Christ, he\u2019s a new creature<\/em>. That\u2019s kind of weird. What does that even mean? If anyone is in Christ, he\u2019s a new creature<\/em>. No, I don\u2019t think that\u2019s the point. Or we might say, If anyone is in Christ, he or she is a new creation<\/em>. That\u2019s better, but we\u2019re still not quite there. Here\u2019s what Paul\u2019s saying. I\u2019m ninety-eight percent certain this is what Paul\u2019s saying, Matt. If anyone is in Christ<\/em>\u2014the Holy Spirit took me and plugged me into Jesus Christ, there to stay, you can\u2019t get disunited from Christ. Jesus would have to get put back down in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea for me to get disunited from him. I\u2019m in him. If you get in him by God-given faith, then you are also necessarily, at the same time, ushered into the dawning new creation. So this new realm that launched\u2014that quietly erupted\u2014in the cosmos when Jesus walked out of the tomb and when the Spirit descended, this constellation of events in the first century, we are now in the new creation and everything that means. We talked about inaugural eschatology earlier. The Eden 2.0 has actually begun. It doesn\u2019t feel like it because the old, fallen age is overlaid with the new creation that has begun. But for believers, for the church, is the reflection. It\u2019s the reality of the new creation in this miserable, dark, black, fallen, sinful world. And so we have been pulled into that. It\u2019s almost like\u2014how would you put it? There was a garden of Eden back in the day; it\u2019s almost like the church is a new garden of Eden that we have been put into to tend and eat the fruit of and so on until Christ comes a second time, and then the old age passes away forever. But for us, the old has passed away and the new has come. That is what defines who we are and when we now live. It\u2019s largely a when<\/em> question. We are now in this dawning new age. It\u2019s amazing.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Yeah, it is amazing. It requires us to have faith\u2014to believe things that we can\u2019t even see and feel sometimes, but it\u2019s true. Alright, maybe a perplexing passage. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh boy.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Second Corinthians 5:21. And this is a verse that I can distinctly remember wrestling with at one point in my life. Paul says, \u201cFor our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.\u201d There\u2019s a lot going on there. There are a lot of pronouns in that verse. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
There are.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Help us understand and walk us through who Paul is referring to at different points, and then in particular, how can he call someone sin?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh my. These are deep theological waters, so we want to tread carefully but boldly going where the text has us go. Paul\u2019s been talking about reconciliation\u2014Christ coming so that sinners can be reconciled to God. That\u2019s the context. Not justification; that\u2019s the law court. It\u2019s not sanctification; that\u2019s the temple. It\u2019s not adoption; that\u2019s the family. Reconciliation is friendship. That\u2019s the metaphor being used here. Not merely a metaphor, but that\u2019s sort of the arena being used here. We were estranged; now we are reconciled. And how does that happen? Verse twenty-one, as he just read says, \u201cFor our sake he [God the Father] made him [Christ the Son] to be sin\u201d\u2014that does not mean to become ontologically or innately sinful. We always want to test every Scripture against the rest of Scripture. So reading in the light of the whole Bible, he bore objectively, not subjectively, but he bore objectively the sins of all those whom he was reconciling. Those who were estranged. \u201c. . . made him [Christ] to be sin who knew no sin\u201d\u2014so Christ came into the world. If sin is blue, our problem is not that we\u2019re walking around the world and we\u2019re doing things that have no blue to them but then every once in a while we do something that\u2019s totally blue. Rather, all of our thoughts, words, and deeds have some tint of blue to them. We\u2019re sinful. Jesus is one person who ever lived on this planet, walked on this earth who had no blue whatsoever in anything he ever did, said, or thought. But when he went onto that cross\u2014his whole life of rejection and especially on that cross\u2014he was swallowing down, drinking down, being treated as; he was taking all the blue of all of his people onto himself and receiving the thunderous condemnation that all our blue deserved. He was made to be sin. \u201c. . . him to be sin who knew no sin\u201d\u2014to take down all the blue who knew no blue. I\u2019m just trying to clarify here.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
A visual picture. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Right. \u201c. . . who knew no sin, so that\u201d\u2014what\u2019s the result? He took all our sin on him so that in him there\u2019s union with Christ. In Christ, if you get united to him, in him we (believers) might become the righteousness of God. So the way Luther would say it is Christ, the heavenly bridegroom, came to us harlots and he married us and he took all our filth, all our uncleanness, all our faithlessness and adulterous ways toward God. We had this massive debt, and he took this debt onto himself and he paid it and he gave to us\u2014there was almost like a financial transaction\u2014he gave to us his righteousness. Theologians call it \u201cthe great exchange.\u201d Calvin speaks of it in terms of clothing. We were naked. Christ was clothed in white robes, and he gave us his white robes and on the cross took on our nakedness. Actually, he literally did do that, but also metaphorically and spiritually he took on our nakedness\u2014the great exchange. So we actually are accounted\u2014Romans 4 is very clear on this, as well as Galatians 3\u2014accounted righteous, legally innocent, and positively righteous before God in the heavenly law court.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
And here\u2019s where we\u2019re striking at the very heart of the gospel, at the very heart of what it means to be saved. I think sometimes the tricky thing about this verse is just the idea that he became sin. It sounds ontological. It sounds like somehow Christ\u2019s essence was changed into sin itself. But you\u2019re saying that\u2019s not what\u2019s going on here. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
No, it\u2019s not. But I think Paul puts it that way because he\u2019s trying to get at just how profound and searching and deep it was that Christ bore our sins. In other words, Paul wants us to understand he didn\u2019t save us in a detached, stiff-arming way, in sort of this keeping at a safe distance, holding his nose towards sinners kind of way. He really bore all our sins. I think that\u2019s what we\u2019re supposed to take from that.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Another very well-known passage but also somewhat perplexing. Second Corinthians 12:7 and the following verses. Paul talks about the thorn in his flesh. What do we know about what that might have been? I know there are lots of theories and we\u2019ve heard different ideas about what that was. What do you think Paul was getting at with that?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
I don\u2019t know, nor do I want to guess. I don\u2019t think we should try to guess, though people have tried to do that. I think if Paul wanted us to know, he would\u2019ve told us.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
So you think it\u2019s strategic on Paul\u2019s part, so to speak, that he didn\u2019t tell us what this was?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
I would guess so because the more he narrowed it in and said, I was talking about this particular difficulty<\/em>, then the more those of us who aren\u2019t facing that particular difficulty may have trouble actually applying this. But we all know what it is to feel like you have a thorn in the flesh. And the word here doesn\u2019t mean a tiny little quarter-inch-tall rose thorn. It\u2019s actually the same word used for what the condemned were impaled upon.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Oh, wow.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
A stake. So we need to feel that as he talks about his fault. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
This is really painful.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
This is excruciating. This is death-bringing, this kind of thorn.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Do you think that it was potentially his own sin, a failing on his own part, that he was struggling with, or is it more likely to be something that was not of his own doing but he was still pained by it?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Even there I wouldn\u2019t really want to try to speculate, brother. We don\u2019t know the content of the thorn, but we do know the intent of it. He says, \u201cThe thorn was given me\u201d\u2014he says it twice in the text\u2014\u201cThe thorn was given me to humble me.\u201d so maybe it was a sin, but maybe it was just a suffering that could still be given to humble him. He says in 2 Corinthians 12:7, \u201c. . . to keep me from becoming conceited.\u201d To keep pride in check. \u201c. . . because of the surpassing greatness of the revelation. He\u2019s been carried up into the third heaven. It means the heart of heaven. He\u2019s had these sublime visions and heard words he couldn\u2019t even repeat (it says that earlier in the passage). \u201c. . . because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.\u201d At the beginning and end of the verse\u2014he says it twice\u2014he says, \u201cto keep me from becoming conceited.\u201d So these are deep theological waters because he says it comes from Satan. A messenger from Satan. Satan was quite happy to bring this thorn to Paul. However, the final purpose of it was to humble Paul to keep pride in check. I\u2019m pretty sure Satan would be glad for pride to grow in Paul. So I conclude that on the one hand this thorn is from Satan. That\u2019s the smaller circle. But there\u2019s a wrap-around circle that actually this thorn is from God, painful as it was, because the ultimate purpose was to bring deeper humility into Paul\u2019s life. That\u2019s very comforting because when adversity flows into my life and it seems quite clear that this is demonic, this is Satanic, I can take comfort in the fact that even that is within the larger wrap-around category of God\u2019s fatherly providence.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Maybe a last perplexing passage from the book. Second Corinthians 13:5. That\u2019s where Paul calls his readers to examine themselves\u2014he uses that word examine<\/em>\u2014to see whether you are in the faith. And then he goes on in the following verses to talk about this examination being a test. And I think that can be a difficult passage for Christians sometimes, and it makes us wonder, Do I need to constantly be worrying about my salvation? Do I need to be constantly worrying that I\u2019m going to fail some test of faith that God is going put in front of me and prove myself to be not a real, genuine believer?<\/em> How do you take that verse from a pastoral perspective?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Yeah, great question, Matt. Robert Murray M\u2019Cheyne said, “For every one look at yourself take ten looks at Christ. Famous statement. That\u2019s a very accurate, proportionate, extrapolation out from the teaching of the New Testament. It\u2019s not take zero looks at yourself and ten looks at Christ. Here\u2019s the one look right there. Second Corinthians 13:5. Do hold up a mirror. Hold up a mirror. Dane, hold up a mirror every so often and ask yourself. The point here isn\u2019t, Are you having at least thirty minutes of prayer per day?<\/em> The point is, Are you living the kind of life that is exhibiting the death and resurrection of Christ?<\/em> That\u2019s the point here\u2014in the immediate context and in the flow of all of 2 Corinthians, as you know. So we do that. We do hold up a mirror. Unhealthy, superficial, presumptuous Christians never hold up a mirror. However, for every one time we do that, M\u2019Cheyne is right, ten times or a hundred times we hold up a window and we look at Jesus Christ himself, which is what we\u2019re doing throughout the whole of 2 Corinthians and all the New Testament. So I think that\u2019s a helpful ratio and proportion. Yes, examine yourself. Dane, don\u2019t get presumptuous. Don\u2019t put it in cruise control or autopilot. There is something healthy about examining yourself. However, all of us to some degree, and maybe some of us really a lot, can become overly introspective. I read David Brainerd\u2019s journals. It\u2019s just painful after a while. He\u2019s so painfully introspective. It\u2019s healthy in small doses, but I can\u2019t take too much of it. At the end of the day, we look out. Look within, then look out, out, out, out to Christ. The sunflowers in Kansas, they say, as the sun goes over the orbit of the sky on a given summer day, the sunflowers trace the sun. They actually turn physically with the sun to be looking at it. That\u2019s a good picture of a healthy Christian life\u2014looking out to Christ. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Alright, last final three questions\u2014three linked questions. I\u2019ve mentioned a lot of different verses from this book. Now it\u2019s your turn to share some key verses for you. First question is, What\u2019s the most motivating verse for you as you think about the book of 2 Corinthians? What\u2019s the verse that makes you want to live for Christ, to be faithful to him, to enjoy the unity that you have in the new realm with him? What would you say to that?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Oh, I love that. Here\u2019s the first one that leapt to mind, Matt. We were just talking about the thorn in the flesh. God could have removed the thorn, or he could have left the thorn and provided grace. Those would\u2019ve been two different solutions to help Paul out, and he did the second of those. He said, \u201cMy grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.\u201d Matt, I don\u2019t ever want to get too smart for that or too strong for that. I always want to stay in the sweet spot, in the power zone\u2014oh, what a silly phrase. I want to stay in the zone of I am weak, and that is where the power of God actually resides. My weakness is not a problem. My wife and I were just sharing in our small group last night how weak we are feeling in our parenting right now. We are just at our wits end. That is safe ground because that is where God\u2019s power is irresistibly drawn. If someone comes to me and say, Dane, I\u2019m struggling with my parenting<\/em> and I say to them, Well, here are four handy tips. Here are seven steps. Go implement and do likewise. What\u2019s wrong with you?<\/em> That\u2019s not where God\u2019s power is. God\u2019s power is drawn to weakness. I need help! I\u2019m at the end of my rope! My power is made perfect in weakness<\/em>. Paul doesn\u2019t say, Okay. I guess I\u2019m alright with weakness<\/em>. He actually goes the other way and says he boasts in weakness. He takes deep comfort in his own felt inadequacy. Well, I can relate to that. I can do the Christian life given that. So I just love that.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
One last verse. What\u2019s the most confronting verse in this book that would confront the ways that we so often think wrongly about who God is and who we are?<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Alright, I\u2019m going to go to chapter seven because all through, and we haven\u2019t talked about it yet, but all through 2 Corinthians Paul is relentless about the interpersonal realities that he is distressed by in the way that these Corinthians are being drawn away. And also the comfort he takes in his teammates in ministry. Matt, this was a new discovery for me in the writing of this book where he says, in 2 Corinthians 7:3, to the Corinthians, \u201cYou are in our hearts.\u201d Okay. You might find that on a Hallmark card. You will not find the rest.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
I\u2019m pretty sure there\u2019s a Disney movie that has a theme song that says that. <\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
But we will not find the following in a Disney movie: \u201cto die together and to live together.\u201d It\u2019s to co-die\u2014it\u2019s one Greek word\u2014and to co-live. Again, one Greek word. Paul uses the language of dying together\u2014co-dying and co-living\u2014two other places. In both of them he\u2019s talking about us co-dying and co-living with Christ vertically. Here he takes that reality of co-dying and co-living, flops it on its side, and it\u2019s talking about a horizontal reality, and he\u2019s saying, You, Matt Tully, are in my heart to die together and to live together<\/em>. What does that mean? I don\u2019t really know. I can probably see about three and a half percent of the glory of what that means. Apparently, because you and I, Matt and Dane, are both in Christ, therefore we are both, in some sense, we are in one another in that there is this profound Spirit-wrought solidarity and union. First Corinthians 12 says when one body part suffers, we all suffer. When one rejoices, we all rejoice. When my toe is stubbed, the rest of my body feels it. When Matt is hurt, I feel that. \u201cYou are in my heart to die together and to live together.\u201d How does that confront me? I don\u2019t live that way. I would like to proceed in the rest of my life as a pastor, as a father, as a friend, with this reality of other believers who are in Christ\u2014it\u2019s not true for unbelievers; it\u2019s other believers\u2014are in my heart to die together and to live together. How might that inform the way we interact with one another? The way we talk with one another when the other person is not present? The way we greet one another in, church, small group? Everything. So that is a wondrous text to fuel depth of Christian togetherness and fellowship and love.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s such a great example of a short text that draws on some of these theological ideas that are rooted all throughout this book, that when you actually think about it, the implications are almost unending for how we live our lives today.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
So true.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Dane, thank you so much for taking the time today to talk with us, to walk us through this incredible book of the Bible\u2014just one book of the whole Bible. We appreciate it.<\/p>\nDane Ortlund<\/em>
Matt, I\u2019ve told you off-air many times, and I need to tell you so everyone can hear. You are amazing. Everyone who\u2019s heard you knows this, so let me state the obvious\u2014you do an amazing job of these conversations. I love working with Crossway. I love you, and it is so much fun to talk with you. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Thank you, Dane. Likewise.<\/p>\n
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