Randy Newman<\/a><\/p>\n <\/em>
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In these honest stories about spiritual searching, doubt, and belief, apologetics teacher Randy Newman gives sincere inquirers the opportunity to investigate faith and encounter God\u2019s love.<\/p>\n<\/p><\/div>\n<\/div>\n
Topics Addressed in This Interview:<\/h2>\n
Matt Tully<\/em>
Randy, thank you so much for joining me today on The Crossway Podcast<\/em>. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
It\u2019s great to be with you. Thanks so much.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
As Christians, I think we all know what it is to struggle with doubt at different points in our lives\u2014lots of different kinds of doubts that might be related to all kinds of things. And yet sometimes it can be hard to know how to talk about that or what to do with that doubt as believers. I wonder if you could start us off today by answering the question, If you were to sit down with a Christian right now\u2014kind of like we\u2019re sitting down right now, maybe at a coffee shop with some coffee in hand\u2014and that person were to come to you and say, Randy, I\u2019m struggling with doubt, and that scares me<\/em>, what\u2019s the first thing that you would say to them?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
I think the first thing I might say is that I also struggle with doubts because I want them to know that they\u2019re not alone\u2014and I do, so I\u2019m not just using that as a line\u2014and that I think doubt may be more common than most people think. So I want to kind of soften the tension there. I think also I want to try to express that even really strong, solid, mature believers have times of doubt. And I think that there\u2019s an image of the mature Christian\u2014whoever he or she is\u2014that they never have doubts. I don\u2019t think that that\u2019s realistic for most people. I can\u2019t pass judgment on the people who say I never have doubts. I know where my mind goes. I doubt that they\u2019re telling the truth, or I doubt that they\u2019re in touch with all of their struggles. But that\u2019s not the point. I think the teaching of the New Testament has places in it that imply there will be times of doubt and struggle and frustration. And so it\u2019s not a question of, How do I get rid of this? I have doubt. I want to get rid of it<\/em>. No, it\u2019s, How do I dig into it and work through it and live with it rather than I\u2019ve just got to get rid of it?<\/em> So that\u2019s the starting point I think of dealing with doubt. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
One of the things I really appreciated about your book is the ways that you approach these broader issues of our spiritual journeys with a very nuanced lens where even things like doubt can have very multifaceted dimensions to them. It\u2019s not always a simple answer that we\u2019re looking for that really is going to resolve that. You say in the book, \u201cI\u2019ve come to see that spiritual journeys resemble a series of twists and turns more than a direct ascent from one belief to another. My own story certainly fits that description.\u201d So I wonder if you could just give us a brief summary of how your own life story has been marked by these twists and turns and even struggles with doubt at times.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
First, I\u2019ve heard a lot of stories of people\u2019s lives about how they\u2019ve come to faith, and for a while a lot of them fit in a very short, linear fashion. When I was this old, I believed this. Then, I learned this. Then, I found this. Then, I became a Christian<\/em>. Straight line.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Yeah. Very simple.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Yes, very simple. I come from a Jewish background, and being raised in a Jewish background, we don\u2019t want anything to do with Jesus. I mean, when I was growing up the only time Jesus was mentioned was attached to \u201cthose people\u201d who are our enemies. They\u2019re the anti-Semites. They\u2019re the people who persecuted us. Germany was a Christian nation, and look what they did during the Holocaust. And so we don\u2019t want anything to do with them. So for a long time when I had Christian friends who would say things like, You ought to read the New Testament<\/em>, No, no, no! I don\u2019t want anything to do with that! And yet at the same time there was this attraction of, Why is it that these people seem to know God in a personal way? They talk to him about everything. They pray about everything. They pray in English<\/em>. And so there was sort of this, No, I\u2019m repulsed by this<\/em> and I\u2019m drawn to it<\/em>. It\u2019s this back and forth kind of thing. I begin the book telling about how I went on this mountain climbing experience with my son, and I learned what switchbacks were. And switchbacks make it possible for people to get up mountains. They go back and forth and back and forth. I know this is audio so you can\u2019t see my hands, but I hope you know what a switchback is. It\u2019s this back and forth kind of thing that just moves gradually because the alternative is you have to climb straight up. I didn\u2019t bring a helicopter that day. That\u2019s the only way I could have gotten up.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Or climbing ropes. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Climbing ropes. You\u2019ve got to have hammers and nails, but a switchback enables you. And I think that\u2019s more the image about how people come to faith. I make some level of ascent, and then I turn back the other way. Then, maybe I stop and rest. I know in my own story there was a time in high school I knew a bunch of Christian friends. They shared a whole lot with me. That got me thinking. Then, I went off to college and for the first year and a half I didn\u2019t think about God or Jesus or anything. I thought about beer and music and girls. Every Friday night I went to a party and got drunk. Every Saturday night I went to the Philadelphia Academy of Music and listened to some of the greatest music in the world. I was looking for something. On Friday nights I was looking for escape. On Saturday I was looking for some kind of transcendence. And both of them were tremendously disappointing. That was my freshman year in college and most of my sophomore year until a friend of mine died in this really tragic accident, and then I had to say, Wait a minute. Wait a second. Music is not going to help me with this, beer isn\u2019t going to help. I\u2019ve got to find something deeper<\/em>. And that\u2019s when I started reading C. S. Lewis\u2019s Mere Christianity<\/em>, I read the Gospel of Matthew, I read a lot of the New Testament. But again, it was this back and forth, indirect switchback kind of thing. When I got to a point of faith and belief and turned around and looked at where I had been, it\u2019s like, *Oh, this was kind of a meandering that took three and a half or four years. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Do you think that those switchbacks, the searching for something and not always knowing what\u2019s next and what the right answer is, did that continue after your conversion? Does that also characterize our lives as Christians sometimes?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Oh, sure. I definitely think so. There are certain truths of the Christian life that the first time you hear it, for a lot of us it\u2019s exactly the opposite of what you were indoctrinated with. And I think there\u2019s probably a hundred different examples, but for me it was all about Jesus. I was steeped in the view that Jesus was a good teacher\u2014a very good teacher\u2014that\u2019s it. And so when friends said, Well, no, he\u2019s God<\/em>, are you kidding? No. Well, he claimed to be God<\/em>. Well, then he\u2019s a nut! The whole idea that God could take on flesh, that\u2019s crazy! And so there are a whole bunch of ideas that you have to first say, Wait a minute. Hold it. Okay. A lot of people really believe this, s maybe I shouldn\u2019t be so dismissive<\/em>. And for some people, that just takes a while. For some people, it\u2019s that God actually chose to reveal himself in a book for a whole lot of people. That\u2019s just crazy! Really? God wrote a book?<\/em> Well, no, he didn\u2019t write a book. He revealed himself, and people wrote a book. Well, how did that happen?<\/em> And again, people need to kind of sit with that. I think we as Christians think we just state the idea. There. It\u2019s out there. It\u2019s true. It\u2019s a two-edged sword; it will cut through. Yes, it is true and it is a two-edged sword. But for a whole lot of people, they need time to kind of sit with it. Because the essence of becoming a Christian is admitting that you\u2019ve been wrong about a whole lot of stuff\u2014a whole lot of really big stuff. I was wrong about who God was, I was wrong about who I am, I was wrong about this thing called sin, I was wrong about who Jesus is, I was wrong about the Bible. So realizing, Oh, there\u2019s another way to look at this. I might need to re examine this<\/em>. And then, as you say, even after we become believers, there\u2019s just a whole lot more of, Oh, I\u2019ve always thought this, but you know what? It\u2019s different. And it\u2019s better. It\u2019s a million times better<\/em>. But that takes some time. It\u2019s not just, Let\u2019s transfer the information from the book into my brain. There. That\u2019s done<\/em>. Wouldn\u2019t it be lovely if that would be that easy? Let me just plug myself into this information source, and now it\u2019s in me<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
It\u2019s not the Matrix. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
No, it\u2019s not the Matrix. And it\u2019s not medication. I mean, medication works that way sometimes. We think, I just need a shot of theology<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
It doesn\u2019t always work like that. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
No.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
One of the things that\u2019s notable about your book is how many stories you include in it. And it kind of got me thinking about the role of stories as we think about both our journey coming to faith and even our journey as Christians and maturing in our faith and addressing some of the doubts and the struggles that we have related to the faith. How would you summarize the importance of stories for how we think about these things?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
I\u2019m tempted to want to answer your question by telling a story, but I can\u2019t think of one right now, so that\u2019s not going to work. Let me just back up a little bit. I\u2019ve written several books about evangelism, and they\u2019re written for Christians about how you do evangelism. And in all of them I talk about the importance of pre-evangelism. There are conversations we need to have before we have the conversation about the gospel. And there\u2019s a million conversations we can have. We can talk about music, we can talk about art, we can talk about family, we can talk about so many things. And then I say how those things are pointers, pre-evangelism. And at some point I thought, I should practice what I preach. I should write a pre-evangelistic book<\/em>. And I tried out these ideas as a talk, and I convinced friends to set me up in places where I could talk to both believers and non-believers on college campuses and different places. I gave this talk that I called \u201cConsidering Faith in the Twenty-First Century.\u201d And all I was trying to say to people is, I\u2019m trying to ask you just to consider or, in some cases, reconsider<\/em>. And it was very pre-pre-pre-pre-evangelistic. I wasn\u2019t presenting the gospel. I was saying, I want you to consider some ideas like, for example, we all approach this topic of faith with a whole mix of motivations, not just curiosity. It\u2019s not just intellectual curiosity. It\u2019s a whole lot of things playing<\/em>. And then I would say things like, I\u2019d like you to consider that maybe faith is inevitable, not optional. Maybe everybody has faith<\/em>. And what I did was I would state the point first, and then I would tell some stories that illustrate it. So, I met with someone who knows about the world of books and publishing, and I said, I got this idea, I got this talk<\/em>. And I told him about it and he goes, Well, that\u2019s a really good talk but a really lousy book<\/em>. Thank you very much! He said books work the opposite. In books, you tell the stories first, and then you draw the point. So a book begins with, Let me tell you about this story. Let me tell you this story. Let me tell you this story. Let me tell you how these stories are similar, which leads me to the point that we all bring different motivations to the topic of faith<\/em>. So that\u2019s how I wrote the book, telling these stories. And it does work better as a book that way than as a talk. There was also this sense, as I heard people\u2019s stories and I read famous people\u2019s stories, I thought people need to hear these stories. They\u2019re just amazing. And nobody knows this part of that famous person\u2019s life. For example, can I give you an example? Lots of people know who Christopher Hitchens was\u2014an atheist, he wrote the book God Is Not Great<\/em>, young atheists just love him. He tells a story in a memoir he wrote, and then I heard him on an NPR interview where he talked about his mother\u2019s suicide. His mother had taken up with another man after she got divorced from Christopher Hitchens\u2019 father, and the relationship didn\u2019t work out. And so they both took their lives. They committed suicide together. He tells this on NPR radio. You could look it up online. He says, My mother tried to call me right before she killed herself. My mother tried to call me, and I didn\u2019t get to the call in time. I just missed it by a few minutes, but I feel like if I would have gotten the call, I don\u2019t think she would have done it. I could have stopped her from doing that<\/em>. And then he says, So I\u2019ve been trying to write myself out of that ever since<\/em>. I remember I was driving in a car. I had to pull over to the side of the road. It was so upsetting. Trying to write myself out of that ever since\u2014he feels like he could have stopped his mother from committing suicide. And all of a sudden, everything I had heard and read by Christopher Hitchens, because he\u2019s a brilliant writer and I had read a lot of his stuff, all of a sudden had a whole different feel to it. Oh my goodness, this guy is just racked with guilt and pain and horror every single day. And he\u2019s trying to write himself out of this mess, and it ain\u2019t working. He was famous for how much alcohol he consumed. It wasn\u2019t just alcohol. He was really trying to self-medicate and cover over a pain so deep. I think people need to know that about him. And so I found out those kind of things about famous people. And then I also talked to ordinary people and I heard their stories about how they became Christians, and they\u2019re just ordinary people and they\u2019re never going to be famous and they\u2019re not going to write books and they\u2019re not going to go on TV shows, but man, their stories are incredible. I want people to hear these stories. You did what? So I try to weave those kind of stories together in the book and say, Doesn\u2019t this make us think that perhaps . . . ?<\/em><\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Stories can add so much color and an understanding to the things that we say, the things that we feel as we talk about this. When it comes to talking with people, you\u2019ve spent countless hours talking with unbelievers and believers alike, hearing their stories of journeys to faith, hearing them articulate their doubts and their struggles with the Christian faith. I wonder if you can, thinking about all that experience you have, can you complete the following sentence in as many ways as makes sense to you: If someone comes to you with their doubts, don\u2019t . . . ?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
So I\u2019m giving advice to the person who\u2019s hearing someone share their doubts to them?<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Right. Whether they\u2019re a believer or unbeliever, you\u2019re giving some advice. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
You\u2019re the Christian, and a Christian friend of yours comes to you and says, I\u2019m having doubts<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Or a non-Christian friend. I think either of those. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Alright, well I\u2019d like to do both. So the Christian comes and says, I\u2019m having doubts<\/em>. I would counsel the counselor to tell them they\u2019re not crazy. They\u2019re not losing their salvation. This probably is more common than they realize. The Christian life does have a bunch of times that We have doubts. C. S. Lewis talked about it as \u201cundulations\u201d in The Screwtape Letters<\/em>. I think that\u2019s just the reality of being human, living in a fallen world, living in a time between the times. We have the revelation of the cross, but we\u2019re still waiting for the second coming, so I think doubt is probably going to happen a lot. I might tell hat person that if all of their Christian friends say, Oh, I never have doubts<\/em>, I would say you should try to find some different friends. Did I just say that? Is that going to get edited out? I do think that there are pockets within the Christian world where they say, I never have doubts. I know that I know that I know<\/em>. And I don\u2019t think they\u2019re reading their Bible as fully or as accurately as they should. So, wow, I wonder if you\u2019re going to get some mail about that. If it\u2019s a non-Christian who says, Well, I just can\u2019t believe because I have too many doubts<\/em>. I would try to say you can believe and still have doubts. You don\u2019t have to be 100 percent certain. And then I would try to say there are all sorts of things in life that we live without 100 percent absolute certainty. For example, I recently had to go to the eye doctor, and he prescribed some eye drops. And then I had to go to the pharmacy and get the eye drops. And then I came home and I put the eye drops in. Now, I never tested these drops to make sure that they weren\u2019t going to drive me blind, or that they were sulfuric acid and that my eyes were going to burn up. I had faith that the eye doctor knew what he was talking about when he looked at my eyes and said, Oh, you need this<\/em>, and that the pharmacy was able to read his handwriting (maybe that was a step of faith) and that they prescribed the right thing. So I had a very high level of confident faith in the eye doctor and the prescription and our medical process. But did I have absolute certainty? No. And there\u2019s just all sorts of things that we need to live in life with a high level of confidence. I believe God has revealed such tremendous truths to us. But in that truth, in the Bible itself, He tells us there are some things he\u2019s not going to tell us. Deuteronomy 29:29 has got to be one of my favorite verses: \u201cThe secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us.\u201d There are things he hasn\u2019t revealed yet. Or Paul talking about \u201cnow we see through a mirror dimly (darkly).\u201d Or Paul saying in 2nd Corinthians 4 \u201cwe are afflicted but not crushed, perplexed but not despairing.\u201d There is perplexity. There are puzzles. And there are times we need to say, I don\u2019t know why God did that<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Do you think sometimes Christians are guilty of, whether it\u2019s talking to unbelievers or talking to other Christians, we\u2019re guilty of presenting the Christian faith as the ultimate answer to all of life\u2019s questions, and if you kind of just accept this, all those perplexities will disappear?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
I think that has happened a lot. I think a lot of very thoughtful questioners have been told to stop asking so many questions. I think that\u2019s a terrible thing to say to people. Let me just back up. I went for a doctorate, and I wanted to get a doctorate in evangelism or intercultural studies, and I went before the committee and said, What kind of research do we need to do? <\/em>And they said, Well, we should interview a whole lot of people who became Christians and hear their stories<\/em>. I thought, Oh, that\u2019ll be great!<\/em> And I knew that the standard in that kind of research was to interview about thirty people. So I thought I\u2019d go low and say I\u2019d like to interview twenty-five people, and they said, No, you have to interview forty<\/em>. And I thought, okay, now it\u2019s my turn to come back with thirty. And I said thirty, and they said forty. And I said thirty, and they said forty. So I interviewed forty. Actually, interviewed more. I ended up doing more. And since then, I just loved the process so much I\u2019ve been interviewing and I just hear lots of these stories. But in a formal, sit-down setting, recording every word, transcribing every word, I interviewed forty college students who had become Christians within the last two years. That was the limitation we put on it. And there was this one guy who that\u2019s exactly what he was told. He was told in the church where his parents brought him growing up, You ask too many questions. You just need to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and he\u2019ll take away all your questions<\/em>. And he thought, Well, that must be a religion for stupid people<\/em>. And he was a really smart guy. He knew he was smart. He was getting good grades. He got a full ride scholarship to a really good university. And he thought, I don\u2019t need Christianity because I\u2019m smart, and Christianity is for stupid people<\/em>. But then he went to an event because people invited him and there was free pizza (that\u2019s really why he went), and it was one of these question and answer kind of things about God, and he only went to make fun of the Christians. And he would ask wise guy questions, but they were really nice to him. So he started going to a Bible study. The Gospel of Mark. And he met a group of people who respected his questions. At one point in the interview I said to him, Was there one major obstacle that you had to get past?<\/em> And I\u2019m thinking evolution, how we got the Bible, philosophical arguments for the existence of God. He said to me, Remember that story where Jesus cast the demons into the pigs? What\u2019s up with that?<\/em> And I thought, That\u2019s your biggest objection? That\u2019s really what\u2019s holding you back?<\/em> I said, Did you ask this in the Bible?<\/em> The first thing the Bible study leader said to him is, Gee, I don\u2019t know<\/em>. I said, Oh, that\u2019s a bad start<\/em>. He goes, No, that\u2019s a great start. It was great. It was great when somebody admitted they didn\u2019t know something because I thought Christians are all a bunch of know-it-alls<\/em>. But then the next thing the guy said was, Well, I guess what this story tells us is we really shouldn\u2019t mess around with demons and that there must be something really different between being a person and being a pig<\/em>. And I thought that sounds pretty good. It\u2019s not the most thorough answer. I said, So did that satisfy you?<\/em> He goes, Yeah<\/em>. And the next thing he said was the most important. He said, You have to understand I was raised in a place where they kept saying stop asking questions; you don\u2019t need answers to your questions. When this guy respected my question and gave me a pretty decent answer, I thought, \u2019Oh, Christianity isn\u2019t for stupid people. There are answers\u2019<\/em>. And then I said, So did you ask a million questions<\/em> He goes, No, I didn\u2019t need to. I figured if there\u2019s a decent answer to that question, there\u2019s probably decent answers to my questions. I became a Christian soon after that<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s such a profound story because it does speak to the posture that we have sometimes as Christians speaking to unbelievers, speaking to weak believers who are struggling with different doubts, that can make all the difference. It\u2019s not always, as you kind of said before, intellectual download of the right answer.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
There is a posture that I\u2019ve seen, and I see it far less today, but there was a time around thirty years ago where the posture in the apologetics world was we have the answers, we can answer all their questions. And the implication was their questions are stupid, but we\u2019ve got the answers. And sometimes it\u2019s, Their questions aren\u2019t real questions. They\u2019re just smoke screens<\/em>. Well, sometimes they\u2019re just smoke screens. Yes, but not always. I remember hearing one apologist say when people ask this question, they\u2019re not really asking this question; they have a moral problem in their life. There\u2019s some kind of immorality going on in their life. And I remember thinking that that might be true in some cases, but how can you make such a blanket statement? That\u2019s not being respectful to people. Remember, Peter tells us to do all of this apologetics with gentleness and respect. And there was a time when it wasn\u2019t very gentle and it wasn\u2019t respectful. I think we\u2019ve come a long way. I think there\u2019s tremendous gentleness and respect now in the apologetics world and in the evangelism world. I\u2019m very encouraged about the trends.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
I want to run quickly through a number of different reasons for doubt that both unbelievers and even some Christians might struggle with in their lives. I wonder if you can, as an example and as a model to those Christians who are listening who want to be a support to their friends, but maybe even for someone who\u2019s listening right now who himself would be struggling with some of these reasons to doubt Christianity. I wonder if you can give us an initial stab at how you would respond to somebody who expressed this to you. The first one: I\u2019m struggling with doubt because of all the pain and suffering that I see in the world around me. Every day we hear of new tragedies around the world and sometimes in our own homes that I just can\u2019t reconcile with the God of the Bible<\/em>.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Yeah, and I think this is very, very common, and whatever help I might be or whatever help you find, don\u2019t be surprised if you\u2019re going to need more help with this again in the future because there will be other things that come along. I\u2019ll be very honest. I\u2019m struggling at this very moment because of the horrors that are taking place in Israel and Gaza. I\u2019m having to go back to lessons I\u2019ve learned and repeat them and rethink them and re-wrestle with them and get on my knees and wrestle with God like the Lament Psalms model for me. How long, O Lord, will you let this kind of horror continue?<\/em> So I think that there is a lamenting mode of being a believer in the world at this point in God\u2019s plan or stage of history. I want to tell people don\u2019t be surprised by these doubts, and I want to say to doubt your doubts. But I want us to dig into them and, either for the first time study or remind yourselves when you last studied, what are some of the best answers that have been given about this problem? So if it\u2019s about the problem of pain and evil and suffering, I would read C. S. Lewis\u2019s book The Problem of Pain<\/em>, or Peter Kreeft\u2019s book Making Sense Out of Suffering<\/em>, or Tim Keller\u2019s book Walking with God through Pain and Suffering<\/em>. And these are difficult books to read. We don\u2019t want to read them and we don\u2019t want to watch the YouTube videos of people giving good answers to these because it\u2019s painful to dig into it. But I also want to say that there is a temptation to walk away from God in these times. Well, then what? That\u2019s walking into a worse place. The living apart from God\u2019s answers leaves you with another set of answers that are terrible, that are pathetic, that are weak, that are no help at all. There are a lot of people who are atheists, and they became atheists because they saw suffering, so they walked away from Christianity. The atheist explanation for suffering has no hope in it whatsoever. No resources to be a good friend when somebody else is suffering. You\u2019ve walked away from the resource of prayer that can give you a sense of hope in the midst of not having intellectual answers. So with all of its incompleteness, the Christian incomplete answer is a million times better than the skeptic atheist answer. And we need to look at the ugliness of that in its raw ugliness and say I\u2019m going to cling to the Christian one because, yeah, I still have questions. If I drew a pie chart of how I handle this, there\u2019s a big chunk of the pie chart that says \u201cI don\u2019t know.\u201d But there are a whole bunch of the slivers of the pie chart that help me tremendously get through pain and suffering.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s such a helpful answer because, again, it seems like it does two things at the same time. On the one hand, it doesn\u2019t over promise what Christianity will do and can fix in the midst of the suffering of this world. We don\u2019t have an easy answer for why all these things happen. We don\u2019t have a definitive way to put an end to all of it because we believe we live in a broken world. And yet your answer also reminds us that the grass isn\u2019t always greener. I think sometimes as Christians we maybe are the most tempted, when we\u2019re struggling with doubt in this area, we\u2019re the most tempted to think that maybe there\u2019s some other way of thinking that makes this easier. But you\u2019re kind of saying that\u2019s a fool\u2019s errand.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
You don\u2019t have to dig too far to find some stories of skeptics and atheists and what they said about death and how they face their own death. And it\u2019s pretty empty. And some of them try to joke about it and crack jokes. And you go, that\u2019s not really that funny. And then it\u2019s also good to look at some people who have really, really suffered who are strong Christians and they say, Here\u2019s why I cling to it<\/em>. Joni Eareckson Tada\u2019s many writings. We need to look at that and ask why would a woman who\u2019s in a wheelchair and a quadriplegic for fifty years still say, I sing praises to Jesus because I love him<\/em>? And there are lots and lots of people like that. I mentioned this just almost as a little aside in the chapter I wrote on suffering in this new book Questioning Faith<\/em>. Why is it that so many African Americans have become Christians and became Christians at a time when they were enslaved by white people who claim to be Christians? Why in the world would they latch onto the religion of their slave owners? There must be something about that faith that is strong and solid and good apart from people who claim to be Christians who really aren\u2019t or people who are some of the worst hypocrites. Frederick Douglass said some really, really beautiful things about the Christian faith. As best as I can tell, I think he became a Christian. But he had a slave master who beat him every day except on Sunday because that\u2019s the sabbath. That\u2019s the kind of nonsense hypocrisy he was immersed in. And yet, when he heard the gospel preached, he found it irresistible. Those kinds of stories need to grab us and say wait a minute. Okay, I got doubts. I\u2019ve seen evil and suffering. Nobody\u2019s ever beaten me six days a week, claiming that they\u2019re doing it because they\u2019re a Christian. So I can learn some things from Frederick Douglass and other people and compare the very, very disparate stories of belief and non-belief.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
That\u2019s a good segue into another reason that we sometimes struggle with doubt. How would you respond to somebody who says, I\u2019m struggling with doubt because of the hypocrisy of Christians<\/em>? We often hear stories of Christians\u2014those who supposedly have a relationship with the true and the living God\u2014of them being just as selfish, just as cruel, just as deceptive as anyone else. So how can I really believe that Christianity is true when this is how Christians behave?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
It\u2019s very disturbing. I wouldn\u2019t try to minimize it if people bring this up. I don\u2019t want to say, Well, you know, that\u2019s a pretty small minority<\/em>. I don\u2019t know how small of a minority it is. I do think it is a minority, and I would try to at least talk about that like, Do you think that that\u2019s the norm? Do you think that\u2019s what most Christians are like?<\/em> But we can\u2019t minimize that too much. We somehow want to make a distinction between those very bad displays of the gospel and Jesus. We want to look to him. I hope I get to deliver this line sometime. I haven\u2019t recently, but I hope someone asks this question, and what I want to say is, Yeah, that\u2019s really terrible. You\u2019re right. I still think Jesus is worth following<\/em>. When I wrote my first book Questioning Evangelism<\/em>, I decided to go after this topic and I titled that chapter \u201cIf Jesus Is So Great, Why Are Some of His Followers Such Jerks?\u201d And I had to kind of sell that a little bit to the publisher, but they liked it. So that\u2019s the jerks chapter. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
You hear this a lot from especially ex-Christians, people who have walked away from the faith of their younger years and the faith of their family and their parents, is they can say, I grew up in the church, and I have just seen the hypocrisy and it made me question whether or not this was all even real<\/em>.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
And there have been some terrible, terrible things. Maybe the starting point is yeah, I understand that. I think if I would have seen some of that stuff then I might have also walked away. I might have, I don\u2019t know. But when I step back, I look at Jesus. There are people who have followed him who are not hypocrites. They\u2019re really beautiful people. They\u2019re broken, they\u2019re sinful, they admit it. But there are some Christian people who do some really amazing things. So I just want to get the landscape as full as possible. I think what some Christians want to do is they want to take all those hypocrites and just get them off the table. Get them out of the picture. No, no, they\u2019re in the picture. They are. But so is Jesus. And so is his resurrection. And so are some really godly people who do amazing things. And I don\u2019t know where, but at some point I also want to point out, and I don\u2019t know the best way to word this. So listeners to the podcast, please do not quote me on this, but at some point we want to say there are a whole lot of non-Christian jerks too. I mean, there really are. There are a whole lot of non-Christians who are hypocrites. There\u2019s a lot of hypocrisy in the world. They\u2019re all over the place. And they\u2019re not just Christians. Christians don\u2019t have a corner on the market of hypocrisy.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Okay, another area of doubt. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
See? He just wants to move on from that. We\u2019re going to talk to the editors about that<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
No, that\u2019s so true, and it is a good reminder. I think sometimes to Christians that can come across as, You guys are the ones who claim to know God. You\u2019re the ones who claim to have this moral code from God that should make you better than the rest of us<\/em>. <\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
It should. There is an outrage in that that is appropriate. There is an outrage, and we want to join them in that outrage. You\u2019re right. and we want to point to the fact that this bothers us is a pointer to the fact that there is such a thing as right and wrong. And wrong and sin should disturb us terribly. So we don\u2019t want to minimize any of that. Anyway, you wanted to move on. I stopped you.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Another source of doubt for us can be the person who says, *Look at all the different religions that exist in the world. If the God of the Bible is real, then why isn\u2019t he 1) at least more universally accepted and recognized, and 2) how can I be totally sure that Christianity, out of all the religions, is the actual right one?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
When people say, Look at all the religions of the world<\/em>, I want to say, Yeah, let\u2019s look at them<\/em>.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
So you\u2019re not afraid of that challenge?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Well, I\u2019m afraid of people who only look on the surface. And on the surface you\u2019re not really seeing what\u2019s really at the heart of things. So I do think it\u2019s good to study and learn and to see how they\u2019re different. And there is a point where we want to say God has revealed himself, and it\u2019s possible for people to miss that or look elsewhere or try to find answers elsewhere. But this has always been a problem. This isn\u2019t just a problem for our day and age when we\u2019re so very well connected because of globalization. It\u2019s more obvious, but it was a problem in ancient Israel for Jewish people to only worship the true God. And you read the Prophets, and they have some really, really strong condemnations of worshiping other gods. And that\u2019s what other religions are\u2014the worshiping of other gods. So this has always been a narrow problem for believers. God\u2019s people have always been surrounded by people who believe other gods. I think it\u2019s a very recent, modern thing, only in the last 100 years or so when people say, Oh, you know what though? No, they\u2019re really worshiping the same God. They just worship him in different ways<\/em>. Well, if you really dig in, or if you have a good conversation with a sincere adherent of another religion, you\u2019ll find out no, they don\u2019t think they\u2019re worshiping the same God. A devout Muslim does not believe that Allah is the same God as the God in the Bible. They think the Bible got it wrong. The Bible distorted it. You talk to a Buddhist who really knows his Buddhism, they know Jewish people worship one God and say that belief in other gods is false. Buddhism says there really isn\u2019t a personal god that you would talk to that would have a name. And so it\u2019s sort of these people who are on the outside who look on a very surfacy kind of way who say, I think they believe the same things<\/em>. Andy Bannister has written a whole book on do Christians and Muslims worship the same God. And he really digs into the Qur\u2019an. He has a doctorate in Islamic studies. He\u2019s a Christian who has a doctorate in Islamic studies, so he knows the Qur\u2019an and he knows Islamic teachings. They don\u2019t think they\u2019re worshiping the God of the Bible. That\u2019s some kind of a secular thing that secular professors of religious studies classes have come up with. But it doesn\u2019t have much substance to it.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Another area of doubt that people might struggle with is just the idea that biblical Christianity forces people into a very small box. The Bible defines us, it defines who we are, who we should be, how we\u2019re supposed to live, who we\u2019re supposed to love. All of these things are very restricting on our identities as people. And this feels like this is kind of an issue that has a lot of resonance today perhaps. Issues around like, Who am I? Who do I get to be and make myself to be? Christianity is just so restricting. How would you respond to that?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
Well, let me back up and say I think the task for us as Christians in preparing how to answer questions has a three stage process of answering. The first stage is I want to make sure I\u2019m really understanding the question. I hear the question and I ask more questions to clarify. I want to make sure that I\u2019m really answering the question the person\u2019s asking. Secondly, I want to think, Okay, so what\u2019s the answer? What does the Bible say? But then there\u2019s the third, and it\u2019s the one that I think people ignore the most, and it\u2019s, What do I say? I don\u2019t just start with, <\/em>Well, here\u2019s what the Bible says. There. God said it, I believe it, that settles it. I mean, that may be theologically right and philosophically watertight, but it didn\u2019t really help the person that we\u2019re talking to understand or move from error to truth. And so there\u2019s a lot of wisdom. We need to do our homework and know what the Bible teaches about that. But then there\u2019s, <\/em>Okay, where do I start?*I\u2019m not ignoring your question. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
It\u2019s the question of how do I persuade or how do I help someone to understand something that, again, sometimes it\u2019s more than just intellectual understanding that needs to be addressed in some of these doubts.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
So we need to study the methodology of Jesus\u2019s answering of questions. Because he didn\u2019t always answer, or at least he didn\u2019t give an answer right away. The classic case. The guy comes up to Jesus, Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?<\/em> All right. That\u2019s a pretty straightforward question. What\u2019s the answer? What some of us would have said in that situation was, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and receive him as your savior and Lord, and you\u2019ll be saved<\/em>. Or we would say, Well, your question implies that you\u2019re trying to work your way into heaven, but you know, works don\u2019t work. By the works of the law no one is saved<\/em>. That\u2019s the theology we would communicate. And that\u2019s right. And that\u2019s true. And eventually that\u2019s what that guy needed to hear. But what did Jesus say? Jesus said, \u201cWhy do you call me good?\u201d Wait a minute. I always picture the disciples in the background going, He gave the wrong answer. Go tell Jesus how to answer this question. This was an easy one<\/em>. \u201cWhy do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.\u201d What\u2019s he doing? He wants to get the guy at the root of his question. His question is, If I just know what to do, I\u2019ve probably already done it<\/em>. Because then when Jesus does quote commandments, what does the guy say? \u201cAll these things I\u2019ve kept since I was a youth.\u201d And Jesus is thinking, You still haven\u2019t gotten to the point of realizing how impossible it is for you to save yourself, so I\u2019m going to have to make you very uncomfortable by saying something that will show you, \u2018Oh, I don\u2019t want to do that\u2019<\/em>. So he quotes about giving away everything and the guy goes away sad. So what\u2019s the question that\u2019s being asked? What\u2019s the answer? And then, what do I say? So with your question\u2014Isn\u2019t Christianity narrow and confining? And by the way, I think when someone asks that question, I think in a lot of cases it\u2019s about sex. It\u2019s telling me I can\u2019t sleep with whoever I want to sleep with. So what\u2019s the biblical answer? Well, the biblical answer is no, you can\u2019t sleep with whoever you want to sleep with. God is very narrow. It\u2019s one man, one woman, within marriage. Okay, yes, that\u2019s the answer. But if you just quote that at bumper sticker level\u2014Well, no, God says it\u2019s one man, one woman for life<\/em>\u2014you didn\u2019t really help the person. You didn\u2019t meet them where they\u2019re at. You didn\u2019t connect with them in gentleness and respect. So what we need to do is a bunch of brainstorming of, Now, what do I say to people?<\/em> And so what I want to say to people is, Don\u2019t we need some limits? Shouldn\u2019t there be some limitation?<\/em> I\u2019m a married man. I\u2019ve committed myself to be faithful to one woman. If I said to my wife, Hey, I think this is too narrow. I want to go do things with other people<\/em>, I\u2019m doing terrible harm to her. I\u2019m hurting her deeply. I\u2019m violating things that I made commitments before God. I said I would be faithful till death do us part. I\u2019m setting an example for my children and my grandchildren about how to live in ways that are destructive for them. So I want to say, Shouldn\u2019t there be some limits?<\/em> And I want the person to go, Yeah, there should be some limits<\/em>. Okay. How do we figure out what those limits are? And what I want to get to is God does set limits because he\u2019s a loving God. He knows what is best for us. And we think unlimited is best. Well, that\u2019s a very modern, secular view that just came along fairly recently. People have committed immorality for a long time, but they knew that it was immorality.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Yeah, they hid it.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
They knew they probably shouldn\u2019t be doing it, but now it\u2019s celebrated. Well, shouldn\u2019t there be some limits about what we say? And what I\u2019m trying to say is, in this third category of what we say, we need to make people uncomfortable before we bring them the comfort of the good news of the gospel. Many people are very comfortable. Well, I just think that\u2019s too limiting, and I feel very comfortable<\/em>. And I want to get them to be uncomfortable about unlimited. If you really live that way, would that really be good for you? At some point, wouldn\u2019t you say, Oh, wait a minute<\/em>? I love Sam Allberry\u2019s book Why Does God Care Who I Sleep With?<\/em> And he just turns it on its head. The very first chapter is \u201cWhy Do We Care Who We Sleep With?\u201d And his point is we do because it\u2019s a very big deal. It makes a very big difference. And if it makes a big difference to us, well then it would make sense that it makes a big difference to God. You just turn the question around long enough to help people think. I want to help you think about this, because I think for our culture that likes slogans, tweets, things no more than 140 characters, some topics are just a lot more complex than that.<\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Maybe as a final question, Randy, at the end of your book\u2014a book where, again, you look at lots of stories of people wrestling with the faith, wrestling with what it means to be a Christian and what they think about God, wrestling with some of these doubts that we\u2019ve even talked about today\u2014you turn to the topic of beauty. You include this really wonderful quote from C. S. Lewis that we\u2019ve mentioned a few times already today. I wonder if you could read that quote for us first, and then unpack a little bit what do you think Lewis was getting at, and why does that maybe serve as a fitting conclusion to our conversation today?<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
I do love that quote. And this has such an important role in my own coming to faith because I used to go to those concerts at the Philadelphia Academy of Music every Saturday night and think, Someday I\u2019m going to hear a piece of music that does it for me. I\u2019m going to find my piece of music that connects me to the transcendent God<\/em>. And it never quite came. Some of the pieces came closer than others, but then the piece of music was over and it was gone. So Lewis said that all those things are pointers. They\u2019re not the end itself. They\u2019re just pointing us in the direction that we should be looking. This was in his sermon \u201cThe Weight of Glory.\u201d He said, \u201cThe books or the music in which we thought the beauty was located will betray us if we trust to [sic] them; it was not in them, it only came through them, and what came through them was longing. These things\u2014the beauty, the memory of our own past\u2014are good images of what we really desire; but if they are mistaken for the thing itself, they turn into dumb idols, breaking the hearts of their worshippers. For they are not the thing itself; they are only the scent of a flower we have not found, the echo of a tune we have not heard, news from a country we have never yet visited.\u201d I just love that quote and that insight that if you trust in it, if that\u2019s where you put your trust, it breaks the hearts of its worshipers. If you find a person that you think, Ah! This is my perfect soulmate<\/em>, give it a week. They\u2019re going to disappoint you. You found the<\/em> piece of music that just does it for you; the piece of music is going to come to an end. And the next time you listen to it, it\u2019s just not going to be quite as good as the last time. Or you go to a place and say, Oh, I met God in this place! And then I went back and, I don\u2019t know, they cut the lawn differently<\/em>. But if you remember that those things are just pointers to the God who created them, it\u2019s what Jesus said to the woman at the well. It becomes a spring of water from within that just keeps overflowing and overflowing and never leaves you thirsty. <\/p>\nMatt Tully<\/em>
Randy, thank you so much for taking the time today to help us to address some of the doubts that we can, even as Christians, wrestle with and point us to that spring of water that lives forever.<\/p>\nRandy Newman<\/em>
It\u2019s my pleasure. Thanks.<\/p>\n
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